Europe In, Denver Out?

[Snrub]

Does anyone remember what San Jose was like in 2005? If they can race there, Champ Cars can race virtually anywhere! The bottom line is do they think they can get people to come and watch?

Champ Car and CART before it were not very good at keeping market success consistant. The most profitable races are going to be the long term successes. The first year of almost any race will be a loss.

I think the European races are either ment to try to bring more money into the series (perhaps the teams more than the series owners) in the short term rather than build something long term.

Street races can work, but not every time. They like anything else take some time to build into something that carries its own momentum. What was mentioned above about Laguna probably applies even more for street races. I think the airport model is perhaps the best one, but it's not going to work in ever case either.

[mountainstar]

If Denver goes I think that would be quite sad because the event had built up over time. The last minute withdrawal of Centrix obviously caused a lot of visible disruption. We still have some time to go until august so hopefully things will be sorted in Denver's favor. It is a good event and race and it's in a good market.

The europe deal I don't see the problem with at the moment. It's 2 races. Big deal. Obviously the reason why this is happening is because of sponsorship/money which is fine if it brings the revenue in. Every race series is a barnstormer, including F1, in that racing series go where the money is.

I think a lot of people have panicked that this is some sort of wholesale move overseas. That isn't the intention based on previous comments over the years by champcar hierarchy. I think the aim is to have 2 races in europe, 1 or 2 in asia and 1 in australia with the bulk of the races being in North America. I would like to see champcar branch out in the usa with more races in the south and northeast.

[JohnSSC]

paul-collins: well done! Very thoughtful input and I think you have hit on something. Tracks in the US are focused on generating "revenue" and for now that can best occur through uuse on a regular basis for track days and club events. Investors love to see that full calendar.

Wilson designed BeaveRun, which is very near to me. There is supposed to eventually be a "North" and "South" circuit but only one has been built and it is tight and entertaining but it in no way can accomodate ALMS, let alone CC/IRL.

There is a lack of circuits here that can accomodate the big time races unlike Europe where there are a large number of high-speed series and therefore a large number of high speed tracks. Part of this (I think) is the lack of pro series that take place on road courses. Part is our fascination for ovals of all types from dirt 3/8 mile to Superspeedways. Part is (imho) CART went heavy into the ridiculously boring street races and moved away from the permanent courses like Mid-Ohio. Why, if you owned such a place, would you "upgrade" your facility when the focus of the "big show" was on street events? With no payoff in sight the $$ required was not available to make the upgrades in the paddock and on the track to get FIA approval.

I went and re-read this thread and found little evidence of "people who have panicked that this is some sort of wholesale move" (racing in Europe). What there is evidence of is that there seems to be plenty of drift within CC as to where they actually want to be. I think the announcement of the European Tour has caused people to legitimately ask just what the focus of CC is. It is a very appropriate question. If they want to go "global" then we as fans would wonder why since there are already a number of open wheel series (aside from F1) that are well-funded, well-established and not hurting for sponsorship dollars out there in the world. Why try to crack new markets when your "home" market is essentially completely unaware of your existence? I saw "Anheuser-Busch" last season on a Williams, not on a Forsythe Lola. The big domestic sponsors apparently are not intrigued by the product here. Turns out the A-B people were not all that intrigued with F1, either but I note that neither CC nor IRL is a fallback opportunity for them.

While admittedly F1 does move a bit but describing F1 as a "barnstormer" is a bit of an underestimation of what the series is about. Further, the fact that you have the Chinas and the Bahrains of this world building tracks specifically to lure F1 gives you an idea that the economics are way beyond F1 being a travelling review of some sort. Not sure that they can be used as a point of comparison with CC.

[paul-collins]

Small aside: A-B on a Williams is no surprise; Budweiser is the best selling beer in the UK.

Similarly, when I was in Paris a few years ago I expected to see the Gallic puffers carrying Gauloise or Gitanes cigarettes, but they all had Marlies. Sheesh.

[indycool]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...287779,00.html

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5034166

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by indycool

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...287779,00.html

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5034166

From the Rocky Mountain piece, I see Johnson trying to influence the folks at Denver:

Johnson said the race is good for Denver and the surrounding communities and that the event gives the city a large amount of exposure.

"It's a real windfall for the city," Johnson said. "The city wins with the event and we want to make sure everyone else does. By the end of the day, it makes good business sense for everyone."

I also see that Johnson states that if the series has to self-promote, it will, so it sounds like the race is safe for this year.

The article in the Post says the race is either dead or on the move for 2008, given the Dem. National Convention, though.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Well, I will take issue with this whole notion of CC owners "hiring the best drivers they can find..." when in actuality CC has been the beneficiary of a number of well-funded drivers who are not from America. The team owners are not "hiring" drivers. They are entering into agreements with said drivers who, in exchange for the funds they bring, are able to occupy the seat.

Partially true -- actually some drivers do get seats because of funds they bring -- but there are teams Newman/Haas for example who as far as I know, hire the best they can find and aquire the funds themselves -- nevertheless -- it's an important point you make here John -- I stand [partially] corrected.

[JohnSSC]

One wonders if they (CC) are going to try to work the same kind of deal in Denver that they did in San Jose where the promoter was given mega-bucks by a city about to go bankrupt to put the race on. So the city made all of the infrastructure changes at their expense and then gave the promoter something like $1 million in unrestricted funds over the course of the contract.

[Purist]

To make it big as a driver, don't you just about have to have connections and/or money to begin with? So how does that make CART any different from any other major series right now? (Do not mistake this comment as me approving of what happens, but simply stating what does happen in motorsports nowadays.)

Having multiple events in close markets doesn't help, but the decline of Laguna and Mid-Ohio is at least as much due to CART's own misfortunes as it is due to nearby venues. Also, Mid-Ohio became a regular CART race after Cleveland did. And CART's first three road races didn't last very long at all (Mexico City, Riverside, and Watkins Glen).

Why exactly do the new circuits need to be catered to amateurs? Road America, Road Atlanta, Mosport, etc have filled out annual schedules. It's funny, that some track designers say the more average driver would hate a "professional" circuit because it would be frustrating to do very well on it. However, the tracks that people seem to love the most (and really love to drive) are the Nordschleifes and Road Americas of the world.

More back to the subject, I'm not sure how well Zolder will work out. With those three chicanes (before the pits, and two on the backstretch) and couple tightened turns, there really are not any flat or near flat-out runs of great length on that circuit anymore.

[JohnSSC]

Of course you need $$ to support your talent as a driver. Some Series' are in better financial shape than others though so there may be more opportunity for those who are not thoroughly funded.

My take, as I noted previously, regarding circuit design is that there is more demand for amatuer events than top-level pro events. So circuit design reflects that. I doubt that the Nordschleife sees many club racing events or Skip Barber-type racing schools using it.

I will go a bit further here and say just because Lime Rock or Nelson Ledges are not FIA approved does not mean that drivers don't love to drive them.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Purist

Why exactly do the new circuits need to be catered to amateurs? Road America, Road Atlanta, Mosport, etc have filled out annual schedules. It's funny, that some track designers say the more average driver would hate a "professional" circuit because it would be frustrating to do very well on it. However, the tracks that people seem to love the most (and really love to drive) are the Nordschleifes and Road Americas of the world.

As if I'd know. Possibly it's driven as much by the need to paperclip the track onto a small parcel of land? Or maybe they're looking for patronage by second-gear-heroes, without taxing them too much. A third possibility is that it's insurance driven.

You've posed an interesting question.

[Last2LiftOff]

Indeed Paul.

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Possibly it's driven as much by the need to paperclip the track onto a small parcel of land?

Ovals do have their advantages.

It's complicated, lots of variables, probably too many; but I certainly agree with you on this one Paul. IMO it has much more to do with it than a lot of people may think. Not just Champcar but F1, motorsports generally, etcetera, ecetera.

A Canuck reference if that's okay; NHL owners' in the very recent past struggling or simply unable to make their stadiums work in the venues they were in - on a bunch of different levels. Some were able to undertake some pretty significant renovations to correct some of the problems, some even built new stadiums, others, not so lucky, and with all the other opportunities elsewhere it simply made more sense to just pack it up and move the team or worse, sell the franchise and let the buyers move it. MLB a good 'American' example where physically, some venues just don't work anymore.

Add in all the other variables (getting the design of the track right, say, if the event is moved) and it becomes IMO exceptionally tricky. How many franchisees have the stomach for it?

But hey, like Paul, as if I'd know

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

One wonders if they (CC) are going to try to work the same kind of deal in Denver that they did in San Jose where the promoter was given mega-bucks by a city about to go bankrupt to put the race on. So the city made all of the infrastructure changes at their expense and then gave the promoter something like $1 million in unrestricted funds over the course of the contract.

That's quiet strange, where did you hear that? How would spending millions on a race be prudent if they were about to go bankrupt? (or is the lack of accountability the reason?)

[JohnSSC]

It was covered heavily in the San Jose newspaper, the San Jose Mercury News. The contract was entered into after being voted upon by their City council. The event is being subsidized to the tune of $4 million and was termed a "grant." The new mayor, Chuck Reed, ran and won the position after the incumbent (who supported CC) was indicted on corruption charges along with an aide. Two other staff members were charged with improper relationships with lobbysists. The charges are not related to the "grant." However, the actions of the others including the former mayor has all such deals under review.

Reed as a Councilman voted to block the $4 million "grant" to the race organizers. He is calling for an investigation to determine if the benefits promised are actually going to be delivered.

Lack of accountability seems to be the tip of the iceberg as far as problems go here. I would link the articles but the ones there are pay per view. The paper does have it's own website (MercuryNews.com) for anyone who cares to look for themselves before taking my head off for being "negative."

My question is if this whole race was such a big money-maker, why would the organizer need a $4 million grant? It would seem that the turnstiles would provide a good bit of cash, etc. But we are waaaay off topic now...

[D.R.T.]

Well if you can get $4 million as a grant as oppossed to have to finding that $4 million from sponsors or raising ticket prices, surely you'd take the former

[indycool]

I can't link it now, but the Mercury-News, the day prior to the City Council's original vote to hold the race in the first place, interviewed people in Denver about their street race. Since Denver had one go belly-up previously, the spokesman for the city said (and I'm close on the quote) "The Mayor already told me that not one thin dime of city money would go into this....we will learn." And that story came out before the San Jose City Council voted $500,000 for the fist one with the idea that it would be paid back.

It doesn't act like city officials in Denver are predisposed to funneling money now, either....in all the stories, no city official has been quoted. The latest one:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...8-denver_x.htm

For San Jose, as John SSC noted, here's the story:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/16487687.htm

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by luke

And not a lets steal the market and see if it works

Hey Luke. Not to belabour a point but I would like to clarify if that's okay.

If Champcar doesn't have to steal a piece of the European market, the only other alternative as far as I know is an audience full of not-currently motorsports fans, and that's alot of newbies. It's going to have to be one heck of show and frankly, not sure what'll be so different than their other forays into Europe - arguably it's even more competitive.

No matter what, they're pushing spaghetti uphill IMHO.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

I doubt that the Nordschleife sees many club racing events or Skip Barber-type racing schools using it.

Oddly I've read on make-specific car forum that the Nordschleife has not an insignficant number of days where they open it up to anyone or anything for something like $20/lap. Apparently some people just take their car on the track and have no skill or experience, but go at a pretty relaxed pace, while other's go fairly quickly. Perhaps someone from Europe can confirm/comment on some of this?

I suspect you are more or less correct though, imagine the number of spotters, etc. over that entire distance for a small club event! If a car wrecked at certain spots it could take a tow truck 15 mins to get to it!

[Rime]

Yep, that's correct! You can drive the 'Nordschleife' for about 15 euro, check Youtube for some laps...

[luke]

Originally Posted by Last2LiftOff

Hey Luke. Not to belabour a point but I would like to clarify if that's okay.

If Champcar doesn't have to steal a piece of the European market, the only other alternative as far as I know is an audience full of not-currently motorsports fans, and that's alot of newbies. It's going to have to be one heck of show and frankly, not sure what'll be so different than their other forays into Europe - arguably it's even more competitive.

No matter what, they're pushing spaghetti uphill IMHO.

Indeed. If the first year isn't a success then that would be expected. I just feel from all the people I know that have been to Champ Car races, that this series has a lot to offer to its fans.
It is a fan friendly series.
Champ Car is a top open wheel series...
Like I said before if they get the promotion right and its an anual fling and it has time to grow from what it is, I can see it being a success.

[indycool]

Well, they'll hafta do it different than CART did it before, or USAC did it in 1978. Both of those were one-trick ponies.

[JohnSSC]

Snrub, you can run the 'Ring for 15 Euro but this is not the same as a track day here. While you are there so are gobs of others on bikes, tour buses, etc. There are a number of accidents that have been fairly serious. Most folks that are there are driving as tourists and trying to negotiate 16K of Monster Track and dodge sightseers in a tour bus is ridiculous.

My point was that you do not have SCCA or NASA type events there typically. I think the races held there (like the 24 hour race) are mostly pro-level.

[Rob29]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Snrub, you can run the 'Ring for 15 Euro but this is not the same as a track day here. While you are there so are gobs of others on bikes, tour buses, etc. There are a number of accidents that have been fairly serious. Most folks that are there are driving as tourists and trying to negotiate 16K of Monster Track and dodge sightseers in a tour bus is ridiculous.

My point was that you do not have SCCA or NASA type events there typically. I think the races held there (like the 24 hour race) are mostly pro-level.

Not sure how 'pro' the Langstreckenpokal (sorry about the spelling!) series is-never been but my impression is its fairly amatuer?

[JohnSSC]

That is why I said "typically" and not "always!"

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Snrub, you can run the 'Ring for 15 Euro but this is not the same as a track day here. While you are there so are gobs of others on bikes, tour buses, etc. There are a number of accidents that have been fairly serious. Most folks that are there are driving as tourists and trying to negotiate 16K of Monster Track and dodge sightseers in a tour bus is ridiculous.

My point was that you do not have SCCA or NASA type events there typically. I think the races held there (like the 24 hour race) are mostly pro-level.

I'm well aware. I agree with the underlying premise that has been made about road courses in north america going towards amature level customers rather than major professional series, but I just through I would point out a strange exception.