Future Of F1 - Page 2

Skam85 · 6 Apr 2006, 13:03 (Ref:1572255)

Quote:

Originally Posted by avsfan733

no but I believe a lot of that was artificially created by the safety car periods. (not intentionally but still artificial)

that's like saying overtaking in in Suzuka 2003 was artificial because it rained when some fast drivers came out and they were at the back..

Peter Nightingale · 7 Apr 2006, 03:21 (Ref:1572764)

F 1 is like a revolving door. The formula is for ever changeing with different interpretations of the regs by the engineers & the F.I.A. & engine people.

avsfan733 · 7 Apr 2006, 13:44 (Ref:1573119)

Skam I disagree...Rain effects everyone equally. the guy in the lead by 10 seconds as well as the guy in last. All the gaps utterly disappear when the safety car comes out. Not saying it shouldn't exist but just saying its not fair to pick out a singular event in a much wider body of data

DeoValente · 7 Apr 2006, 14:56 (Ref:1573194)

Quote:

Originally Posted by avsfan733

no but I believe a lot of that was artificially created by the safety car periods. (not intentionally but still artificial)

Look left I must disagree. F1 didn't seem to lose any fans (at least not on here) because Ferrari did well. Sometimes it helps to have what some people view as the darthteam.

I hate to make the comparison but it seems appropriate in the context of this discussio nto bring up NASCAR. NASCAR is not anything we F1 fans (for the most part) find all that interesting, yet it is an enormous success. The drivers and teams have personalities they aren't robots. The racings close and even if its contrived (restrictor plates) its alot more exciting to watch a race with 100 passes for the lead than 1 if you ask most people in the US (personally I disagree). NASCAR has entertainment which F1 seems to have lost in hospitality sweets closed paddocks and motor homes within arms reach of the garage door

Isnt the difference that F1 was never intended to be entertaining, or at least not the main point? Iirc it was invented so manufacturers could race prototypes on a more or less equal sheet of regs against each other. The drivers where of way less importance. Gradually the drivers like Nuvolari, Fanghio, Surtees got their fans and the public became more interested.

I still think back to the erly 90s when youd have live coverage of practise sessions taht sometimes got washed out with rain and for an hour you simply saw nothing. A tree and a fence, a piece of tarmac. And everybody was happy.

avsfan733 · 7 Apr 2006, 16:49 (Ref:1573283)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeoValente

Isnt the difference that F1 was never intended to be entertaining, or at least not the main point? Iirc it was invented so manufacturers could race prototypes on a more or less equal sheet of regs against each other. The drivers where of way less importance. Gradually the drivers like Nuvolari, Fanghio, Surtees got their fans and the public became more interested.

I still think back to the erly 90s when youd have live coverage of practise sessions taht sometimes got washed out with rain and for an hour you simply saw nothing. A tree and a fence, a piece of tarmac. And everybody was happy.

There was no internet then. no one could express their disapproval to everyone else

I honestly think the problem is the rules are caught inbetween two value systems. People want it to be entertaining, but they want it to be fast. I say ditch the present rules give them a box and a weigth for the car. and then the rest of the rules are to prevent spectators from dieing. the drivers volunteer and get paid for a dangerous activity so suck it up. Fire fighters don't complain and they probably make 40K a year as opposed to MS's 40M

Deo, your right it its supposed to be the ultimate and it no longer is. But unfortunately no one has the attention span for that anymore

Marbot · 7 Apr 2006, 20:25 (Ref:1573419)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matski

If teams can't compete fcuk them.. if they can't afford it fcuk them.. I can't afford an Aston Martin.. but I don't expect them to put a 1300cc engine in it and make it out of tin, just so I can afford it....

If at first you don't succeed,throw some more money at it!

Interesting philosophy.

And you can always buy a Toyota.

Russ-Turner · 8 Apr 2006, 20:48 (Ref:1574121)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bauble

If you painted all of the cars the same colour you would never know which was which.

This is because the teams are reaching the aerodynamic optimum. They are bound to find similar solutions to the same problems.

Pingguest · 9 Apr 2006, 15:54 (Ref:1574627)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ-Turner

This is because the teams are reaching the aerodynamic optimum. They are bound to find similar solutions to the same problems.

I disagree. Teams would find less similar solutions, if they would be allowed to do so. But the current regulations are too strict.

Marbot · 9 Apr 2006, 16:06 (Ref:1574630)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I disagree. Teams would find less similar solutions, if they would be allowed to do so. But the current regulations are too strict.

If the teams were allowed to use different types of engines (V10s,V12s,W16s,turbo's etc) it wouldn't be too long before they all found the optimum configuration,which in recent times just happened to be the V10 (even Ferrari had to give up on its too heavy and too thirsty V12).Same applies to aero.

Pingguest · 10 Apr 2006, 10:24 (Ref:1575408)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

If the teams were allowed to use different types of engines (V10s,V12s,W16s,turbo's etc) it wouldn't be too long before they all found the optimum configuration,which in recent times just happened to be the V10 (even Ferrari had to give up on its too heavy and too thirsty V12).Same applies to aero.

If teams were allowed to use different solutions, they might never find the optimum configuration. Ferrari and Toyota had planned to use V12's from 2002. Ferrari even tested with a new V12 in 2001.

Matski · 10 Apr 2006, 17:27 (Ref:1577819)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

If at first you don't succeed,throw some more money at it!

Interesting philosophy.

And you can always buy a Toyota.

hmm... thats not what I'm saying. Renaults budget is smaller than toyota's, Renault are better becuase they are better at what they do...

My point is... If you can't afford something that other people can... then it's your problem, not theirs... (we're not communists afterall !!!)

My bigger problem relates to the technology side of it... if you wanna see close racing and overtaking, watch a series where that already happens... I wanna see the most exotic cars possible racing at the biggest venues, at mentally fast speeds... I don't think that dumbing down all the cars and making them all practically the same will give closer racing.... (just look at the difference between team-mates performances).... Champcar's are pretty much the same aren't they? and there's not exactley a low of overtaking in that is there?

Seoigh · 10 Apr 2006, 17:46 (Ref:1577834)

IF (still a big 'if' at present) IRL and Champ Car can settle their differences, that could quickly become the world's premier open-wheel series.

Matski · 10 Apr 2006, 18:33 (Ref:1577867)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

If teams were allowed to use different solutions, they might never find the optimum configuration. Ferrari and Toyota had planned to use V12's from 2002. Ferrari even tested with a new V12 in 2001.

True...
Interesting ti look at the performance angle.. Last years "petronas" V10 sauber, vs. this years BMW V8 sauber.... which would you choose? this also shows that it's not just the bhp's of certain engine configs that you have to consider... it the impact it has aero/cooling on the car.

Okay, given the choice they may all settle for V10's again... but isn't it better that they get to choose the optimum configuration, rather than get told to use something that might not be as good.

Who know's you may get a team that turbocharges... destroys the rest of the field for half the season, but suffers blow-ups and reliability issues the other half..

avsfan733 · 10 Apr 2006, 18:41 (Ref:1577869)

I would love to see turbo cars again. I really think diversity has been lost in F1 and thats where they need to go. Some setups will have an advantage at one track some at others. Say teams have to choose and engine configuration at the begining of the year and just take steps to limit development. Hell why not just ban computers from the garages/pitlane/pitwall you get a radio, a driver, a stopwatch, and whatever data collection you squeeze into the car for looking at once you get back to the factory

dsg · 11 Apr 2006, 05:16 (Ref:1578228)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seoigh

IF (still a big 'if' at present) IRL and Champ Car can settle their differences, that could quickly become the world's premier open-wheel series.

I think that is very unlikely. Even if they merged tomorrow it would still be a predominantly North American series without the world's best drivers or racing cars. They would need to go global and then as their status improves attract leading drivers and manufacturers, not to mention avoiding being crushed by Max and FIA along the way.

rocketracer · 11 Apr 2006, 12:50 (Ref:1578526)

As is mentioned in some other threads (ie "Sebastien Bourdais"), its very frustrating to see the log jam in F1s top ranks... guys like davidson and bourdais have been quick for a few years now, and run the risk of losing their racing spark if they're on the sidelines too long, or conversely get rabbitised in the headlights when they do finally get a go...

would be good in the future of F1 to have teams running slightly modified older spec cars (ala torro rosso restricted v10) having a sprint race on a friday or something with under 25yo drivers to show their respective talents in front of the F1 audience on F1 tracks, and it would also liven up the grand prix weekend... Would probably give more opportunity for the younger guys to get an entrance to F1 racing, rather than just F1 quick test laps...

maybe this could fix the cost problems of privateers in F1 as well - ie running restricted cars which don't cost anything to develop, racing in a sort of pre-qualifying league... And maybe the bonus of coming in the top 3 in the friday sprint race would be to gain entry to qualify and race on the sunday...

(ok so i haven't really thought out the ins and outs of such a scheme, but happily disregarding details)

avsfan733 · 11 Apr 2006, 14:39 (Ref:1578598)

Thought this was relevant to the safety discussion within. Especially the comment about Toyotas position at the end
http://f1.racing-live.com/f1/en/head...11122307.shtml

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1live

Toyota's Ralf Schumacher has hit out at what he calls 'stupid drivers'. The German, a staunch advocate of improving safety in Formula One, criticised those rivals who moan about recent innovations designed to protect the 350kph racers.... ...Toyota President John Howett has been quoted by Autosport magazine warning that the Japanese carmaker could quit Formula One if Mosley does not devise rules to keep it as 'the pinnacle' of racing

DeoValente · 11 Apr 2006, 16:37 (Ref:1578677)

Quote:

Originally Posted by avsfan733

I would love to see turbo cars again. I really think diversity has been lost in F1 and thats where they need to go. Some setups will have an advantage at one track some at others. Say teams have to choose and engine configuration at the begining of the year and just take steps to limit development. Hell why not just ban computers from the garages/pitlane/pitwall you get a radio, a driver, a stopwatch, and whatever data collection you squeeze into the car for looking at once you get back to the factory

That last plan goes against the wishes of most manufacturers, who have invested millions in expensive simulators, rigs and god knows what other devices to minimize any chance of losing. Max is putting down big rulechanges for 2008 to make it all a bit less but the days of no telemetry i doubt if wed ever see it beyond places like Goodwood.

avsfan733 · 11 Apr 2006, 19:45 (Ref:1578790)

at some point the teams will become receptive to someone saying no. otherwise they will go broke. Shipping probably alone costs more money than any of us will make in our life. I know its not likely to happen but somethign must be done to make it more competitive. You could run a Champcar team for what they spend in tires I'll bet.

**Adam43** · 11 Apr 2006, 20:17 (Ref:1578818)

Quote:

Originally Posted by avsfan733

at some point the teams will become receptive to someone saying no. otherwise they will go broke. Shipping probably alone costs more money than any of us will make in our life. I know its not likely to happen but somethign must be done to make it more competitive. You could run a Champcar team for what they spend in tires I'll bet.

Probably, but an extra team entered this year and there seems to be plenty waiting in the wings for 2008. Is the future already here?

DeoValente · 11 Apr 2006, 20:41 (Ref:1578849)

I agree..this year sees a new team, with another team running different engineconfig, eventhough im not quite happy with its performance jump over the rest..and all the signs are there we are in for a very entertaining season, with lots of teams capable of winning. I wonder how the new rules will affect the current standings though.

Seoigh · 12 Apr 2006, 02:21 (Ref:1579120)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsg

I think that is very unlikely. Even if they merged tomorrow it would still be a predominantly North American series without the world's best drivers or racing cars. They would need to go global and then as their status improves attract leading drivers and manufacturers, not to mention avoiding being crushed by Max and FIA along the way.

You raise a valid point....but there have been a number of Successful F1 pilots who came from NA open wheel backgrounds.

I would honestly prefer NOT to see F1 diminished, but it seems the powers that be are doing their level best to assure such an outcome.

Additionally, both series have dipped their toes in overseas events,and for a number of years now, so I no longer see that as a stumbling block.

**Bononi** · 14 Apr 2006, 03:02 (Ref:1580942)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seoigh

You raise a valid point....but there have been a number of Successful F1 pilots who came from NA open wheel backgrounds

Past drivers, a long time ago. In the last 20 years, none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seoigh

I would honestly prefer NOT to see F1 diminished, but it seems the powers that be are doing their level best to assure such an outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seoigh

Additionally, both series have dipped their toes in overseas events,and for a number of years now, so I no longer see that as a stumbling block.

I don't think the american viewers really want that. That has been always the problem. It's not a specific problem, but more a matter of culture, all the most popular sports in USA are suited to the domestic preferences.

Skam85 · 14 Apr 2006, 03:56 (Ref:1580953)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Past drivers, a long time ago. In the last 20 years, none.

JV and JPM spring to mind, but we could be on different wavelengths.

dsg · 14 Apr 2006, 04:42 (Ref:1580966)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skam85

JV and JPM spring to mind, but we could be on different wavelengths.

I took Bononi's reference to mean U.S. born drivers. Not drivers from other countries who progressed to F1 through CART etc.

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