[Official] Driver of the Grand Prix: Singapore Grand Prix 2015

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Tost already said Max was right to disobey those orders cause they thought Sainz would be faster on newer tires but he wasn't

It doesn't change the fact that the team gave him an instruction and he didn't follow it. Why give him the call to get out of the way if they're happy for him not to?

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It doesn't change the fact that the team gave him an instruction and he didn't follow it. Why give him the call to get out of the way if they're happy for him not to?

have you watched the vid I posted?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

It doesn't change the fact that the team gave him an instruction and he didn't follow it. Why give him the call to get out of the way if they're happy for him not to?

It was a silly instruction. But I'd say there's a real subtext that STR brass are disinclined to challenge Verstappen lest they lose him to a bigger team.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

have you watched the vid I posted?

Nope, I'm not on a connection where I can see that at the moment.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It was a silly instruction. But I'd say there's a real subtext that STR brass are disinclined to challenge Verstappen lest they lose him to a bigger team.

Agreed. They gave him an instruction, he refused to comply, now the team are back tracking. This effectively gives Verstappen the green light to do as he pleases now.

[chillibowl]

also have to agree with that. its not so much a question of whether or not it was a bad call or not but how it relates to the team dynamic overall.

from MV's point of view, im not entirely sure if this is a sign of the petulance of youth or a sign of having the maturity to know the racing situation around him.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Nope, I'm not on a connection where I can see that at the moment.



Agreed. They gave him an instruction, he refused to comply, now the team are back tracking. This effectively gives Verstappen the green light to do as he pleases now.

Tost says Carlos was slower on his new tires than they expected and he was never close enough to Max to pass so Max was right.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Tost says Carlos was slower on his new tires than they expected and he was never close enough to Max to pass so Max was right.

But that's all post race analysis. At the time the call was made the team obviously thought that Carlos had a better chance of getting past Perez (otherwise why make the call?) - so Max should have moved over.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But that's all post race analysis. At the time the call was made the team obviously thought that Carlos had a better chance of getting past Perez (otherwise why make the call?) - so Max should have moved over.

Carlos was not close enough, so why should Max move over?

Max was closer to Prez than Carlos was to Max.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Carlos was not close enough, so why should Max move over?

Max was closer to Prez than Carlos was to Max.

A lot of good it did him, he could not pass so why not let Carlos have a go?

Whether it was right or wrong to make the call is one matter, but Verstappen's instant and somewhat childish; No! tells us a lot about his attitude. A more measured reply would have indicated a bit more maturity. It does not bode well for the future, maybe some of his 'great' overtaking moves are not so well thought out, and the result of a brash approach to racing.

Talent must be nurtured, not indulged.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Carlos was not close enough, so why should Max move over?

Because the team told him to. Whether the team was right or wrong to give him the instruction is not the point - the team gave him a direct instruction and he refused to follow it. Not good enough.

Originally Posted by bauble

A lot of good it did him, he could not pass so why not let Carlos have a go?

Whether it was right or wrong to make the call is one matter, but Verstappen's instant and somewhat childish; No! tells us a lot about his attitude. A more measured reply would have indicated a bit more maturity. It does not bode well for the future, maybe some of his 'great' overtaking moves are not so well thought out, and the result of a brash approach to racing.

Talent must be nurtured, not indulged.

Exactly.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Because the team told him to. Whether the team was right or wrong to give him the instruction is not the point - the team gave him a direct instruction and he refused to follow it. Not good enough.



Exactly.

Thank you Bert.
Cheers,

Bob

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Because the team told him to. Whether the team was right or wrong to give him the instruction is not the point - the team gave him a direct instruction and he refused to follow it. Not good enough.



Exactly.

the team already admitted they where wrong.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by bauble

A lot of good it did him, he could not pass so why not let Carlos have a go?

Whether it was right or wrong to make the call is one matter, but Verstappen's instant and somewhat childish; No! tells us a lot about his attitude. A more measured reply would have indicated a bit more maturity. It does not bode well for the future, maybe some of his 'great' overtaking moves are not so well thought out, and the result of a brash approach to racing.

Talent must be nurtured, not indulged.

Carlos couldn't even get close to Max, he would not have been able to pass Perez.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

the team already admitted they where wrong.

Yes - but that's not the point. He was given an instruction and didn't follow it. End of. If they didn't want him to follow the order why give it to him? Whether the order was justified or not isn't the point here - it's that Max directly went against what the team asked him to do.

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Carlos couldn't even get close to Max, he would not have been able to pass Perez.

If he'd got closer to Max he'd have started destroying his tyres - why not hang back to preserve the tyres, get Max to move over, have a go at Perez and if it doesn't work out let Max back past? Sensible team tactics I'd have thought? We'll never know if Carlos could have got past Perez because Max prevented the team having that opportunity.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Yes - but that's not the point. He was given an instruction and didn't follow it. End of. If they didn't want him to follow the order why give it to him? Whether the order was justified or not isn't the point here - it's that Max directly went against what the team asked him to do.



If he'd got closer to Max he'd have started destroying his tyres - why not hang back to preserve the tyres, get Max to move over, have a go at Perez and if it doesn't work out let Max back past? Sensible team tactics I'd have thought? We'll never know if Carlos could have got past Perez because Max prevented the team having that opportunity.

you obviously did not see that Max got by the Lotus cars easier than Carlos and that Max was the faster of the 2 the whole race.

Max overtook both Lotus cars much smoother and cleaner than Carlos,Carlos forced both Maldonado and Grosjean off track(wich is supposed to be against the rules)

Max was closer to Perez than Carlos was to Max: at the finish Max was 6 tenths behind Perez while Carlos was 1.4 seconds behind Max.

[bauble]

Should teams give 'orders' to their drivers?

If an order is given should the driver obey?

Two questions that would attract different answers depending on an individuals's point of view.

Accepting that premise further discussion tends to be come pointless.

So may I ask everyone this question;

Please assume that 'Team Orders' are acceptable.(go on force yourself).

Should a driver accept the order or should he be free to ignore it if he does not like it?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

you obviously did not see that Max got by the Lotus cars easier than Carlos and that Max was the faster of the 2 the whole race.

Max overtook both Lotus cars much smoother and cleaner than Carlos,Carlos forced both Maldonado and Grosjean off track(wich is supposed to be against the rules)

Max was closer to Perez than Carlos was to Max: at the finish Max was 6 tenths behind Perez while Carlos was 1.4 seconds behind Max.

All of which is very interesting but again doesn't change the fact that Max refused to follow an instruction from the team.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by bauble

Should teams give 'orders' to their drivers?

If an order is given should the driver obey?

Two questions that would attract different answers depending on an individuals's point of view.

Accepting that premise further discussion tends to be come pointless.

So may I ask everyone this question;

Please assume that 'Team Orders' are acceptable.(go on force yourself).

Should a driver accept the order or should he be free to ignore it if he does not like it?

A driver should think for himself and not act like a mindless drone.

people "just following orders" led to some of the biggest mistakes in history

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

All of which is very interesting but again doesn't change the fact that Max refused to follow an instruction from the team.

as it would have never worked anyway he was right to do so.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

A driver should think for himself and not act like a mindless drone.

people "just following orders" led to some of the biggest mistakes in history

Hmmm! Not too sure what to make of that Steve!

[bauble]

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - A British national has appeared in court in Singapore charged with endangering the personal safety of drivers by walking across the track during last weekend's floodlit Formula One Grand Prix.

Court documents on Tuesday identified the 27-year-old man as Yogvitam Pravin Dhokia.


HE'S ENGLISH??????????????????

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

A driver should think for himself and not act like a mindless drone.

Up to a point - but where do you draw the line? If the team tell him not to use a particular engine setting - is it ok for him to ignore that and risk blowing the engine? Think for themselves where appropriate but above all listen to what the team are telling you and follow the instructions - the team have all the data and are aware of the bigger picture, the driver has an isolated viewpoint and can't make strategic decisions on their own.

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

people "just following orders" led to some of the biggest mistakes in history

Originally Posted by bauble

Hmmm! Not too sure what to make of that Steve!

Heading into dodgy territory there!

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Up to a point - but where do you draw the line? If the team tell him not to use a particular engine setting - is it ok for him to ignore that and risk blowing the engine? Think for themselves where appropriate but above all listen to what the team are telling you and follow the instructions - the team have all the data and are aware of the bigger picture, the driver has an isolated viewpoint and can't make strategic decisions on their own.

Max could see in his mirrors Carlos was not close enough, even if Max let Carlos by he would not be able to catch Perez let alone pass Perez.

also Max is not the only one who disobeyed teamorders: Massa did in Malaysia last year and so did Hamilton in the Hungarian GP of 2014

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

even if Max let Carlos by he would not be able to catch Perez let alone pass Perez.

There is no way of knowing that for sure - as Max prevented us finding out.

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

also Max is not the only one who disobeyed teamorders: Massa did in Malaysia last year and so did Hamilton in the Hungarian GP of 2014

True. Still doesn't make it the right thing to do though

[John Turner]

As has SebVet.