Another Hit -- Report Cotman's Out

[Tony Clifton]

With Cotman gone, Miller summed it up succinctly, it is game over for CCWS. When you give a driver $2 million to run in your series and he turns it down and the previous $2 million winner has no sponsorship (meaning he is out of a ride), the series is done.

2008 is going to be it for CCWS and it will end with a wimper.

So sad to see, so sad.

I thought if any owners could pull it off it would be Kalkovan and Forsythe. Obviously they are letting Gentilozzi make bad decisions.

Only good news will be if the other series at least picks up LBGP, Burke Lakefront and Surfers.

[rush1]

It still comes down to one man, Kevin Kalkhoven, and his desire to write various checks to subsidise the series or let it expire. He can start by writing a big check to close Derrick Walker's mouth.
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=227689


All he has to do is make a couple of comments to the press, open his wallet and everything falls into place.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by rush1

It still comes down to one man, Kevin Kalkhoven, and his desire to write various checks to subsidise the series or let it expire. He can start by writing a big check to close Derrick Walker's mouth.
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=227689


All he has to do is make a couple of comments to the press, open his wallet and everything falls into place.

Funny, Tony George has been doing that for years with his series and it is not caused it to grow.
It will take far more than writing checks for CCWS to recover and the necessary steps have been ignored or not carried out for 12 plus years.
CCWS is doomed, there is nothing to do but watch it go and remember how great it once was.
In my opinion CCWS may not even be able to make it to the first race. Only 4 drivers are signed at this time.
Memories are forever, today is a reality and tomorrow only a possibility.

[Dutton]

I don't think you can take only 4 drivers being signed (assuming this is true - I have not been following closely enough) to mean anything in terms of the series not running.

All teams will be able to fill their seats. The standard may not necessarily be any good, but the seats could easily be filled.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I don't think you can take only 4 drivers being signed (assuming this is true - I have not been following closely enough) to mean anything in terms of the series not running.

All teams will be able to fill their seats. The standard may not necessarily be any good, but the seats could easily be filled.

The irl's season starts even sooner and they have many deals not yet tied up. With a recession hitting pretty fast it's going to be hard to have full grids of 18 cars for either series.

Ultimately writing checks solves the problems short term, but does nothing long term if no changes are made.

[Dutton]

Well, yes, the longterm is obviously not good regardless. I think we can barely think too much about the medium term for CC at the moment, let alone ponder the longterm.

Oh, my, this is all so depressing.

[JohnSSC]

So what changes would you suggest CC make then, mountainstar?

[luke]

Good ones.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Oh, my, this is all so depressing.

Ain't that the truth Dutton, the killing babies kind of depressing.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

The irl's season starts even sooner and they have many deals not yet tied up. With a recession hitting pretty fast it's going to be hard to have full grids of 18 cars for either series....

Possibly, but IRL's situation is 100 times better, with solid teams, paid drivers, encouraging purses, Indy500, and even possible arrivals from CC ...

[indycool]

There are certainly some deals not tied up yet in IRL, mountainstar. But the $1.2 million series subsidy has cut the cost of sponsorship toward a better and cheaper ROI for sponsors and there seem to be more people talking about and/or putting teams together than the past few years.

There are rumors about CC teams, Greg Beck and PDM want to do it if they can package up the remainder, Playa del Racing might, it helps D&R significantly, Sarah Fisher is putting her own team together, etc. When you hear this stuff in September or October, it tends to be BS talk. But when you hear it after the first of the year, it tends to be a more legitimate "try."

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

There are certainly some deals not tied up yet in IRL, mountainstar. But the $1.2 million series subsidy has cut the cost of sponsorship toward a better and cheaper ROI for sponsors and there seem to be more people talking about and/or putting teams together than the past few years.

There are rumors about CC teams, Greg Beck and PDM want to do it if they can package up the remainder, Playa del Racing might, it helps D&R significantly, Sarah Fisher is putting her own team together, etc. When you hear this stuff in September or October, it tends to be BS talk. But when you hear it after the first of the year, it tends to be a more legitimate "try."

Mostly all they did was take the prize fund pool and split it up into equal checks. About as exciting as the CART ESP program you railed against several years ago. I don't know how that makes for a better and cheaper ROI for sponsors? Make sponsorship cheaper? You hardly want to do that!

People might want to put deals together but word is sponsorship is scarce on the street.

You might see people front for indy, but that's it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

Possibly, but IRL's situation is 100 times better, with solid teams, paid drivers, encouraging purses, Indy500, and even possible arrivals from CC ...

Not even close.

The irl has 3 solid teams that don't have immediate funding worries.

Paid Drivers, champcar has them too. If the irl was so great, Hornish and Francheeki would not have fled to nascar, with more looking to follow.

Encouraging purses? Remember prize money is replaced now with a subsidy and token amounts for the top finishers outside of indy.

Indy 500, yes certainly a big race, nice to have.

Possible arrivals from champcar? Who? Dan Clarke? He's all yours.

I think if you believe the irl is a pillar of stability don't fool yourself. Word on the street is that it is going to take a number of pay drivers with bags of gold or tonybux in order for a number of cars to be able to front at the season opener.

[indycool]

No, what they did was cut the event prize fund, jack up the "500" purse and THEN do the subsidy, all at the same time. A lot of it is trading dollars around.

As for making sponsorship cheaper, a team now needs $3-3.5 million to run the series instead of $4.2-$4.7 million. That means it can approach a sponsor with more realistic numbers. A sponsor is looking for bang for the buck. It's a better buy at the lower number.

EDIT: Climb, you must be walking different streets in Indy than I do.

[davyboy]

The squabbling between these series has led to the deterioration and what will possibly be the ultimate demise of open wheel racing in America. All that matters today is NASCAR. Champcar has been dead for the last few years... its a second rate spec series with second rate teams and drivers... if you don't believe me, cast your mind back 10 or 12 years and compare it what was one of the premier racing series in the world. The IRL is not in great shape either and even if ChampCar dies, its future is far from clear.

Put yourself in the position of a sponsor... an IRL team, a champcar team and a NASCAR team come to you looking for $1M in backing, where are you going to put your greenbacks !

[indycool]

That would mean entirely what you'd be RECEIVING for your million dollars -- in any of those series.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

No, what they did was cut the event prize fund, jack up the "500" purse and THEN do the subsidy, all at the same time. A lot of it is trading dollars around.

As for making sponsorship cheaper, a team now needs $3-3.5 million to run the series instead of $4.2-$4.7 million. That means it can approach a sponsor with more realistic numbers. A sponsor is looking for bang for the buck. It's a better buy at the lower number.

EDIT: Climb, you must be walking different streets in Indy than I do.

It's common knowledge and voiced by different team owners in previously published articles that the budget to run the irl is more like $5-$8 million.

But for arguments sake I'll take your numbers for the moment. What you are saying is that sponsorships are only worth $3 million? So you've devalued the price of the sponsorship. Hmmm... You've hailed the welfare checks as greatness to lift a nearly out of business IRL team onto the grid yet you've slammed the $2 million assistance prize given to the atlantic champion as not being useful. Hmmm....

As you say a lot of it was trading dollars around. The indy purse was long overdue for an increase, so I don't see that as a big net gain. The prize fund has been socialized into welfare checks with equal amounts for all with a little meagre prize money to the top finishers at each race. Big Deal. There might be some extra money there on the table for the little guys around a couple hundred grand by seasons end, but it doesn't seem to be making up the numbers.

What I find funny is all the years you've slammed the CART ESP program from 2003, yet suddenly the irl welfare program is a slice of genius.

[JohnSSC]

I'll try again!

mountainstar, despite luke's assurance that your ideas regarding CC would be good ones, I really am interested in hearing what you think KK/GF/DP & PG need to do to improve CC or differentiate it from the CIRCL syndrome.

I know that we would all love to read another CIRCL thread parsing the past and negating anything positive the other side of CIRCL is doing but this is (let me look!) - yes! This is a CC thread - so how about it? What does CC need to do to survive?

[indycool]

The budget for smaller teams isn't $5-8 million in IRL any more than it is in CC. Penske probably spends more than that. D&R probably spends less than that.

Yep, the ESP didn't work and I said it wouldn't and criticized it because it was the only thing to hold the teams together for a series without all the other things that needed to go with it.

Am I devaluing the price of sponsorship? Nope. I'm saying with the subsidy that a team can make it a better bargain and still compete. And it isn't me devaluing a sponsorship. The teams will get what they can for giving what they can. All those deals are different. Some of 'em are combination deals with a bunch of associates, plus driver appearances, plus show cars, plus hospitality, etc. You're playing a sponsorship as ten gallonbs of paint on the side of the race car for what the team needs and they ain't the way the game is played.

And don't put words in my posts.

I have never slammed the $2 million Atlantic prize. I thought it was a good idea. But it was pictured and portrayed (NOT said by anyone officially) as it would be enough that CC would get the champion a ride with it. This year, it didn't because the driver was asked for more....sorta defeats the purpose. It proved worthwhile in 2007 with Pagenaud, who doesn't have a ride for this year yet, and yes, didn't prove useful to Matos.

And I did NOT call the IRL's subsidy program "a slice of genius." I merely said what I thought it would do.

[icemachine]

From my perspective what seems to be required is pretty simple

1) Team owners that aren't series owners need to be guaranteed that the schedule they sell to sponsors is one that they will race at.

2) Venues that turn profits for the promotor, whether its an outside or a CC promoted race.

3) Get rid of the big gaps in the schedule, casual watchers want to tune in every week or every other week, not once a month. I love the June/July /August schedule, but going from that to one race in each of the next 3 months is a real drag.

4) Better TV coverage

5) Merge - if nothing else race at Indy

[madman16]

Happens every year and then on the fri of long beach there are 17 drivers waiting to step into cars

[climb]

Originally Posted by indycool

...

EDIT: Climb, you must be walking different streets in Indy than I do.

Wish the Lord I could walk in Indy some day!

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...I think if you believe the irl is a pillar of stability don't fool yourself. Word on the street is that it is going to take a number of pay drivers with bags of gold or tonybux in order for a number of cars to be able to front at the season opener.

Don't even bother respondiong you about previous points, others did it already.

The point is you seem to comfort yourself about CC troubles by (wishful) thinking that IRL is more or less in the same situation.

Since I think dreaming is a right for everyone, I will respect yours.

[Knowlesy]

Well, it is not totally unfair for mountainstar to think that way.

Indycar is undoubtedly in a stronger position. But this does not make it strong per se.

It is relatively stabilised for the moment, which is good news. They have a sound schedule and team roster. But to say it is in a good position as things stand is a bit much.

[Rich D]

So, this is why he went:

http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=10483

Interesting, to say the least....