The US GP farce

[Adam43]

There has been one since then I think. It was memorable because it was the first time that F1 didn't do aggregate times after a red flag. Was it Spa after Burti's crash?

Off topic, but the aggregate rule was abandoned because it was confusing for the fans. So what's with the new Q sessions then.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by jetsetter
Brazil 2003 the race was red flagged & ended prematurely after Alonso went crashing through Webber's debris.

That red flag was useful for TV because the race was slow due to the rain. So they probably didn't hesitate there!

The two accidents and need for medical crews are not dismilar.

[climb]

Originally posted by tangoed sparky
I seems that you have to be german and driving a red car to get a race stop. When michael broke his leg at silverstone that was a race stop even though he was off the track at the back of the gravel trap. ...

First: eventual negligence towards others cannot be compensated by negligence to MS or whoever, too, should an accident to him/them take place.

Second: MS had every personal interest at stopping the race, since the hurt driver was his brother.

Conclusion: for someone every reason is good to speculate against MS.

[fog_shadow]

climb,
that is part of the package. Michaels success unfortunately means that there will be people who despise him. sad but true.

fog_shadow

[garcon]

How did a thread about the ineptness of the race stewards turn into a Michael flame-fest?

The FIA must ask some serious questions concerning the stewardship of the race.

1. The time it took marshals and medics to attend Ralf. (presumably they had to wait for a track clear signal??)

2. Leading the cars through the debris from Ralf's incident - I cannot understand why the SC didn't take them through the pit lane, especially as this seems to be standard practice in oval racing!

3. How do they resolve the problem of carbon fibre shards causing punctures? The incident on lap 1 wasn't worthy of a red in itself, but alot of the field went through the debris. Same again after Alonso's incident. Given the potential consequences of a blow out on the oval, should they allow the teams a breather to change their tyres?

Finally, I don't think Indy is too dangerous. If anything the incidents - especially Ralf's - proved that today's F1 cars can stand up to just about any impact with the wall (although I dread to think what may have happened even five years ago). As long as they learn the lessons about how they must manage the race, I don't see why Indy can't stay on the calendar without any significant changes to the circuit.

[mirwin]

there was a red flag in Germany 2001 when a Prost crashed into M.Schumacher. There was a lot of debris on the front straight, so the race was stopped.

If the race had been restarted, would it have been a new race? Or would half points been awarded?

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by The Monster
Unfortuntly TV schedules now take presidence over the lives of drivers. They won't stop races any more as it messes up TV schedules, I mean when was the last red flag (aside from Brazil 2003 which was at the end of the race)

Guess what - switch on telly this morning and that soap women on the Lorraine show was complaining that Corrie was 5 min late. Just had to note it!

[Phoenix1]

Originally posted by mirwin
there was a red flag in Germany 2001 when a Prost crashed into M.Schumacher. There was a lot of debris on the front straight, so the race was stopped.

If the race had been restarted, would it have been a new race? Or would half points been awarded?

From memory, I could well be wrong so be good if omseone got time to double check!

Times from lap before red flag
Race restarted under rolling start (??)
Times aggregated after race

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by garcon
How did a thread about the ineptness of the race stewards turn into a Michael flame-fest?

The FIA must ask some serious questions concerning the stewardship of the race.

1. The time it took marshals and medics to attend Ralf. (presumably they had to wait for a track clear signal??)

2. Leading the cars through the debris from Ralf's incident - I cannot understand why the SC didn't take them through the pit lane, especially as this seems to be standard practice in oval racing!

3. How do they resolve the problem of carbon fibre shards causing punctures? The incident on lap 1 wasn't worthy of a red in itself, but alot of the field went through the debris. Same again after Alonso's incident. Given the potential consequences of a blow out on the oval, should they allow the teams a breather to change their tyres?

Finally, I don't think Indy is too dangerous. If anything the incidents - especially Ralf's - proved that today's F1 cars can stand up to just about any impact with the wall (although I dread to think what may have happened even five years ago). As long as they learn the lessons about how they must manage the race, I don't see why Indy can't stay on the calendar without any significant changes to the circuit.

All very good points. Ironically the main Coronation Street stroyline that people had to wait for was discussion of whether a guy no one likes had cancer - surely the safety of a REAL person is more significant.

I have to correct Hockenheim 2001. Michael Schumacher was out, and it was lap 1 so he would've been allowed to rejoin in the spare car, so the race was stopped

[jj2728]

we were sitting just down the track from ralph's incident and could NOT believe how long he sat there unattended before the safety crews showed up....shades of the 60s and 70s in my book....i don't know what caused his crash, but it was eerily reminiscent of ruben's crash a couple of years ago....alonso's crash was spectacular and frightening too....i think it should have been red flagged after ralph's crash.....each time michael drove by the scene he looked over at it and he initially thought it was montoya...

[Kicking-back]

The fact Ralf wasn't seriously hurt is a testimony to the safety of the cars.

He did hit concrete - so hopefully notice will be taken of that, and the safer barrier extended a bit for next years Grand Prix.

[Uncle Sam]

Just speculation here, but I think FIA regulations for the track design severely restricted emergency access to that part of the track. Indy safety crew can normally be on top of crash within seconds. IMO it was not the fault of the safety crew, but admin for controlling the race and letting emergency personnel access the track.

I don't know if they showed it on TV, but the ambulance carrying Ralf was kind of omininous. The ambulance and three other safety vehicles proceeded around most of the track to get to the track infirmary. The pace car and field of cars wound up passing the ambulance near turn 4. It almost looked like a funeral procession. Kind of an eerie site, especially seeing MS pass the ambulance carrying his brother.

[Hepatic]

I happen to have worked in the pit lane, and it can be a very confusing and scary place to be during a race. Forget sending cars down there during the pace car, you've got people crossing the lane all the time during the pace laps and it'd only end up getting someone hurt.

As for the time it took to get to Ralf, i think the medical cars are based at the pit exit during the race, as thats the easiest way to get them out on track. You'd never get any half-competent driver going the wrong way round a race track, even when it's not live. A crash at 180mph is bad enough, let alone a closing speed of 300mph+....

In the UK you have marshal posts all round the track, including on pit wall. The layout of Indy at that part of the circuit doesn't really allow for marshal posts, so where normally marshals would attend in seconds, Ralf had to wait for the support vehicles to turn up. Incidentally, in the UK support vehicles aim to get to any accident on track in less than 90 seconds (i think), so it's not an unreasonable amount of time the US guys took to get to him. It just seems a long time when not even marshals from trackside have gone to help.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by garcon
Finally, I don't think Indy is too dangerous. If anything the incidents - especially Ralf's - proved that today's F1 cars can stand up to just about any impact with the wall (although I dread to think what may have happened even five years ago). As long as they learn the lessons about how they must manage the race, I don't see why Indy can't stay on the calendar without any significant changes to the circuit.

Well said garcon.

Indy is not to dangerous, and it has provided some of the best GP's over its short time as the host of the USGP. Before this accident, I can remember many posts stating how great it was to use the high-bank and long straight-away at Indy. Now, after one accident, with the driver getting a concussion and back bruises, we are arguing over whether Indy is to unsafe.

While we can argue over the response time to get to Ralf and all of that, accidents and danger are part of racing, and I feel we are beginning to go abit overboard on this thing. This is a sport played by humans, and officiated by humans, so unfortunately, things like this, will happen from time-to-time. I'm quite sure that the stewards know they screwed-up big time on Sunday, and are beating themselves up pretty hard over it.

Like garcon says, lets learn from this, and move on, but let's not kill the sport over it.

PS - IMO, the FIA needs to swallow its pride abit, and use the Delphi Safety Team, that the IRL employs at all of there tracks, including Indy. They know the tracks and are quite good at what they do.

[Down F0rce]

The Delphi Saftey team are the best. No one gets to an accident quicker than they do.

[Kicking-back]

In the situation with Ralf, there was no way possible to have got to him quicker.

Oval racing is different.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
In the situation with Ralf, there was no way possible to have got to him quicker.

Oval racing is different.

Not true KB!

I know you watch the IRL, and you know that the Delphi Team would have been there in seconds, let alone minutes. I've never seen a driver in the IRL sit so long on the track.

[Kicking-back]

That's fair enough on an oval track - but they would not have driven onto what's essentially a blind, flat out corner on a road course.

[Liam34]

They did "swallow their pride" and use the Delphi Safety team.
see
http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic...bf8baf8acaa0a0

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Liam34
They did "swallow their pride" and use the Delphi Safety team.
see
http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic...bf8baf8acaa0a0

Yes, but they were under FIA control for this race, as are all facets of the USGP, and couldn't make a move without there OK.

This has been covered in other threads, and I don't really want to restart an argument again. It happened, let's learn and move on...

[Kicking-back]

Well said, GP Racer.

[f1atic]

Perhaps they didn't hurry too much getting to Ralf (not that I agree with this reasoning) because his contact with the team and the team in turn with the medics that he was more or less okay and talking with them.

All of that other stuff is a mystery:
Use of pit lane;
Finally deciding JPMs car was not legal;
There were other things too and I imagine one of the changes next year will be to add/extend the safer barrier to be worthwhile for the F1 circuit.

By the way, for the person who wrote about F1 cars not being made to meet with concrete walls, what race car is? Another BTW, until a couple of years ago, no track had a safer barrier and all walls were just concrete.

[65bc]

i would rather hit any wall in an f1 car than in an irl car, jpm was only kept in the race for that long because of all the cloumbian fans and the budwiesetr sponsership

[Skam85]

Originally posted by tangoed sparky
I seems that you have to be german and driving a red car to get a race stop. When michael broke his leg at silverstone that was a race stop even though he was off the track at the back of the gravel trap. This is the second time that they have carried on running with a driver ill in his car on the circuit. That should have been a red flag IMO.
Also why I am complaining why does michel always get away with almost breaking the rules?

I agree that the race should have been red flagged, but it is unfair to say that as the race in Silverstone 1999 was already red-flagged before Michael's crash due to cars stranded on the grid. Michael crashed as he thought he was racing, but the race had already been stopped. Sorry mate, but check your records before saying that.

[Bleu]

Originally posted by Phoenix1
From memory, I could well be wrong so be good if omseone got time to double check!

Times from lap before red flag
Race restarted under rolling start (??)
Times aggregated after race

Not like that anymore.

Order of the lap before
Standing start (if not said otherwise) by the order
2nd race order decides

In Belgium 2001 it was used like that.