BMW rumour for Le Mans 2017

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by deggis

Enforced or published? Enforced 2017 onwards, but the regs would have to be ready much earlier, lets say at latest in mid-2016 teams need to know what to design and even that is really late if the changes are big. Final ratification in late 2016 by FIA WMSC, but in this kind of cases that is mostly a rubber stamping process.

According to Neveu's comments in interviews sounds like they don't have yet clear idea what changes are even coming if any and obviously they want to see what happens in June.

There are usually meetings at LeMans with potential and current constructors.

We will see a draft by the end of the year, or early next, with finalization coming by June or July next year. To me, it seems, as long as the rules are favorable,(I don't see any massive changes, the rules have been pretty stable for a bit now) I think BMW to LMP will happen.

[deggis]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...50#post3539050

Originally Posted by ss_collins

The RCE story is not a straight translation of the AMUS story. It is based on the Sport Auto print edition story but has additional info. We have a few more quotes from Jens that I'll upload later.

But yes its all from the same source in Germany. I don't think that RLM got it from the same place though.

Did you upload and where? (At least not here: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/c.../le-mans-news/)

[wolfhound]

I think about four manufactures is about the right number for the WEC. If any more join especially if it has six or more it means somebody is going to finish bottom of that pile without much to show for it.
The other danger is that manufacturers will start an arms race in their attempts to win the WEC or LeMans and if it gets too expensive they could all leave in numbers like happened in F1 in the late noughties or Group C in the early nineties.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

I think about four manufactures is about the right number for the WEC. If any more join especially if it has six or more it means somebody is going to finish bottom of that pile without much to show for it.
The other danger is that manufacturers will start an arms race in their attempts to win the WEC or LeMans and if it gets too expensive they could all leave in numbers like happened in F1 in the late noughties or Group C in the early nineties.

Agreed. And unless they up the grid count, if you start adding more manufacturers with 2 or 3 cars, you start losing LMP2s and GT cars - cars which are more important than I think the LMP1 teams would like to admit. They are the true enthusiasts and I wouldn't want to lose more for more LMPs.

[Spyderman]

Well...that all depends on what the vision is for the WEC. You will never have a F1 rivaling (in terms of popularity) series if one's main focus is on privateer entries.
Don't get me wrong. A well balanced series (similar to what it is now) can become quite popular , but it will somewhat limited in growth.
Think of a WEC with 6 or 7 factory programs: The attraction would be enormous.

[Akrapovic]

Until they all leave and they have to panic to reduce costs to get the privateer teams back in. See F1 right now!

[Simmi]

Not sure why people wouldn't want to see BMW.

We seem to be heading towards some sort of cost cap ahead of the new regs. Worrying about grid sizes for 2017 seems a bit premature. As does any of this really given BMW haven't said a word about this programme publicly. But there's no reason to assume that the 2015 grid cap is going to be the same in two years.

Sportscar racing is cyclical. F1 will enjoy an upturn in the future. Sportscars will face a downturn at some point. Why deny yourself a blue-chip manufacturer?

[Akrapovic]

I don't think BMW are a bad thing - they're a fantastic thing. But LMP1 slots either have to be accommodated by new garages and bigger grids, or by the loss of smaller teams. I'd like 20 works LMP1 teams, but only if we don't lose small teams whilst we're at it.

[Acid09]

It's all about what's good for the sport and honestly, if accommodating a large-scale manufacturer means losing two more GTE-Am cars, I'm all for it.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Until they all leave and they have to panic to reduce costs to get the privateer teams back in. See F1 right now!

F1's problem are not costs. It is it is trying to correct the many errors it has committed by a reduction in costs. Over regulation and management and strategy mistakes are the main issues driving their problems.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think BMW are a bad thing - they're a fantastic thing. But LMP1 slots either have to be accommodated by new garages and bigger grids, or by the loss of smaller teams. I'd like 20 works LMP1 teams, but only if we don't lose small teams whilst we're at it.

We know there are more garages being built at Le Mans and I don't think it's a big issue at the tracks the WEC visits. They just might need to get a bit smarter about hospitality which is apparently one of the biggest considerations.

The WEC would need to perhaps get another plane for freight but that had to be something they'd anticipated as part of a growing series.

Privateers are precious like you say but if it means AF Corse enter only four cars instead of six then I don't really mind.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

F1's problem are not costs. It is it is trying to correct the many errors it has committed by a reduction in costs. Over regulation and management and strategy mistakes are the main issues driving their problems.

Really? You should tell that to the likes of Sauber and Force India because they seem pretty worried about the ever rising costs.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Really? You should tell that to the likes of Sauber and Force India because they seem pretty worried about the ever rising costs.

Is it the rising costs that they are worried about, or the fact that the smaller teams get less compensation than the richer teams? Costs are an issue if your revenue is low. That problem can be solved either through lowering costs or increasing revenue.

[J Jay]

I'm not sure that the comparisons with 98-00 are entirely accurate. That period saw a big manufacturer rush to Le Mans in a very short time, which probably contributed to the bubble bursting. At the moment we have a relatively stable set of factory entries that has increased over a longer period. I don't see as much of an issue with BMW coming to LMP1 because it will take them time to get the program started, which gives time for the ACO to accommodate the extra cars.

[GT3.14]

We may not need the extra garages if P2 is hit hard when the spec engine regulations come in to play. The spec engine P2s would just be grid filler to me, might as well put Carrera Cup on the grid.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Really? You should tell that to the likes of Sauber and Force India because they seem pretty worried about the ever rising costs.

Priveteer teams have always struggled in F1, it has always been a hugely expensive sport to participate in. What happened is that when the financial crisis hit in 2007/2008 a lot of the manufacturers left F1, and after that the sport hasn't done enough to bring them back or attract new ones.

[deggis]

It's kind of funny that the biggest obstacle to growing grids is the semi-artificial grid cap.

Also, on the other hand, the more manufacturers there are, the more there are also left when some of them eventually leave. Now that 3-way overall win battle has become a norm and maybe soon 4-way, going back to two would be a downer.

[Deleted]

There is one way two tier could be better than current four tier. Ferrari vs Porsche

Anyway there isn't really grid limit for current LMP1, it only exists for the other classes.

[TF110]

Which is why they need to keep costs down before one or two teams spend everyone out of contention. Thats something f1 has a problem with. If the costs are in control you can keep teams around longer imo. They just need to tread carefully so innovation doesnt go stagnant.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by deggis

Also, on the other hand, the more manufacturers there are, the more there are also left when some of them eventually leave. Now that 3-way overall win battle has become a norm and maybe soon 4-way, going back to two would be a downer.

Indeed, two is the bare minimum the series needs to survive. So the further away we get from that, the better...especially considering that two of the manufacturers are even connected to each other and as such are not completely separate entities.

To be in a real stable state, the series needs two non-VAG factories competing because we never know how long the "allowance" of having two makes race each other at VW will list.

Right now, we're barely there, especially as it is still looking like Nissan's effort will be short-lived. So at least one more manufacturer is pretty much needed for long-term stability.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

Which is why they need to keep costs down before one or two teams spend everyone out of contention. Thats something f1 has a problem with. If the costs are in control you can keep teams around longer imo. They just need to tread carefully so innovation doesnt go stagnant.

In F1 the weird splitting of revenues and laughable "you get extra money just for being there" gifts for certain people are bigger issues than the actual running costs. Though the stupid ban of customer chassis and artificially forcing you to field 2 cars for every race whole year ain't helping

LMP1 budgets are still far smaller so no need to make knee jerk decisions, like with the circuit alterations.

[TF110]

Theyre not that much smaller. Maybe for a private team like Kolles or Rebellion. But Audi (maybe Porsche) are north of $150-200million a year. F1 revenue is paltry compared to what the teams spend. Even if they all got an equal share, I think nearly half of it goes to Bernie and friends. The wec, well, does it even have a purse? I wonder if they have a situation where that becomes a talking point. But in reality, manufacturers arent in the wec for prize money. Would that encourage more teams to participate? I think the future is going to be interesting. Hopefully some big rethinks in the rules come about and BMW is among those pushing for that.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

F1 revenue is paltry compared to what the teams spend.

Wouldn't say third or even nearly half of the budget is "paltry".



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118955

[Number7]

BMW - listen to me - no better place to show the true value of your brand than Le Mans! Show us that 1999 was not a one off!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Wouldn't say third or even nearly half of the budget is "paltry".



http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118955

Compared to the near $400million spent by Red Bull and company, yeah its paltry. Maybe another word would be better. How about a fraction? Forbes puts it nicely how sad the state is in terms of money earned. In any way you view it, the small teams gain nothing. Imagine how bad itd be in the wec with minimal if any prize money for private teams. Especially if big guys like F1 teams and their budgets joined. Even if it was half, theres no room for a Rebellion to ever have hope. Maybe the wec should talk about customer cars