Was the R8 really that good?

[JAG]

'Beyond that the R8 has finished on the podium in every single ALMS race it has ever contested (and has won 50 of them) - has set pole position 48 times out of 79 '

For me this is the most dissapointing stat from a fans perspective.

We all know the Audi was unquestionably the best car, but the opposition has rarely been able to advantage when an opportunity has arrisen, even when they had the fastest car.

[Graham Goodwin]

Absolutely understand and in many ways I agree entirely

[Nick49]

Hello

Well for what its worth, I think the Audi R8 was a good sportscar although I was never convinced it was the greatest sportscar because I never thought it had a credible opposition to it, works or otherwise. Yes Audi did a marvellous job making it and running a winning team but even they must had despaired at times about the lack of opposition. Towards the end of its racing life the ACO imposed restrictions on the car to try to give what opposition there was a chance to beat it and the Zytek and Pescarolo eventually did.

I still think the Porsche 956/962 was a better sportscar due to the fact it was up against works oppostion from the start. Whats more it was a winning car in a variety of privateer hands as well.

Nick

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Nick49

I still think the Porsche 956/962 was a better sportscar due to the fact it was up against works oppostion from the start. Whats more it was a winning car in a variety of privateer hands as well.

Joest, Champion, Goh, Veloqx, and Johansson all won races with the R8. That's a pretty good list of teams. Say what you will about these being privateer teams or not, but they all won races after the factory team left the scene.

As for works team competition, the R8 won races against BMW, Bentley, Cadillac, Chrysler, MG-Lola, and Panoz.

In regards to the 956, which works teams did it crush? Especially if you look at the early years, say 1982 to 1985. I see Lancia. The only major difference was that Porsche made the 956 more available to customers. Finally in 1986 Jag came to the scene and eventually won the WSC in 1987, some five years after the 956 had debuted.

IMSA had a tad bit more variety during that time, but not much. Either way, I don't see a huge difference in works competition. It seems history always casts a different light. Maybe 20 years from now the R8 will be praised like the 956/962 is.

[Nick49]

Hello jhansen

Well there was Rondeau as well at the start but this thread is probably a perception thing as much as anything. Group C was my particular "Golden Period" and I'll admit to being a bit slow to coming around to the LMP1 type sportscars. Theres no escaping the fact that the Audi R8 scored a lot of race wins from starts, but Bentley only raced four (?) times and I always regarded them as an Audi team. BMW were on the way out and Cadillac obviously couldn't stand the heat in the kitchen.

I fully agree with your last sentence. We all have our favourites which often have nothing to do with bald facts .

Nick

[isynge]

Ford's C100 programme was annihilated by the 956. I'd classify Rondeau as being more in the gifted privateer category - a sort of 1980s Henri Pescarolo. I know towards the end of '82 they got quite a bit of support from Ford but realistically once Otis decided to take a break from high intensity sponsorship that was that.

The other thing to consider with the 956 was the number of customer chassis vendors that it squeezed out. If you look at the grid for 1982 there were quite a few serious entrants in traditional customer cars (Lola, March etc) and a few intriguing one-offs (Grid) - okay it wasn't an annihilation, in that the quirky persisted, but the chances of anybody other than Porsche making serious inroads were pretty comprehensively dented.

It's also worth thinking about the deterrent effect of the 956/962. There were probably quite a few manufacturers who looked at Lancia and really didn't want to be there. A similar analogy to some of the comments above about the R8 scaring off other works efforts.

[jhansen]

To me the two examples are quite similar (apart from the customer cars difference). Yet the R8 seems to be more villified than the 956/962. I suppose that is due to the passage of time. Hence, I would have to imagine that some day the R8 will receive a bit more praise.

[Splatz the Cow]

To Graham Goodwin, jhansen, AudiR8R, and others, I just don't agree with you, even though I read all your posts and you have made very clear points.

I guess it might come down to your view point about what makes a car great. Some people instantly head for the stat book, but I do not agree that is a measure of the car. Looking up the history books is a measure of the race, and the cars in them. It does not measure the cars not in.

It does not examine the context that the car (Audi) raced in; what was happening in motor racing at the time.

The R8 itself was the product of the R8R and R8C projects.

I have not questioned the success of the design, and certainly there is no need for some of you to react mortally wounded.

It is the benchmark car that I believe was where sportscar racing was at the time.

The car was always about one to two years ahead of the opposition. When the Cadillac appeared in the year 2000, it was a fresh, neat design with low CG and light weight. But it was at the same stage of design as the Audi R8C or R8R in its first year. The Audi though, was at least a year to the good, and had a massive buget advantage. Notice how good the 2002 Cadillac was in comparison to 2000, everyone here was upbeat and excited?

The only manufacturers at the same stage of development, and with a competitive budget, were Toyota and BMW.

Both the BMW and Toyota were easily going to be competitive with the Audi, but they moved to F1. The respective moves to F1 had absolutely zero to do with the R8, and had been planned before the R8 even hit the circuit.

Judging the Audi R8, I see a fantastic car made by innovative people.

I am not convinced that it was so much better than the Toyota and BMW, had they been developed, as is normal by manufacturers.

The R8 is exactly what I would expect from a complete manufacturer effort lasting so many years.

So, I say again, had Toyota and BMW stayed, and developed their designs, they would both be a match for Audi, and I think the Toyota would be the best car.

[jhansen]

So perhaps you could provide a short list of great cars.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by Splatz the Cow

I say again, had Toyota and BMW stayed, and developed their designs, they would both be a match for Audi, and I think the Toyota would be the best car.

But they didn't stay around and the Toyota, good car though it undoubtedly was never won a race - Motorsport History is littered with cars that might have been great if they had been developed.

The BMW was a great car and was a good match for the Audi in its first year - Again though it was gone all too soon.

I guess I'm in a good position to offer some perspective here - I was far from a fan of the 956/962 'in period' thinking them characterless and dull, utterly dominating the sportscar scene. With the benefit of hindsight though they are pure of form, blindingly fast and genius on four wheels - My guess is that many that see the R8 as unspectacular now will feel differently with the context of history.

[JAG]

My opinion of the R8 changed last season when it was obviously not the quickest car against the Zytek and Creation, in the LMS.

Seeing the car fight hard for victories made it far more appealing.

I'm reminded of Silverstone and the fight against the quicker Creation car.

[Graham Goodwin]

Now THAT was a RACE!

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by jhansen

To me the two examples are quite similar (apart from the customer cars difference). Yet the R8 seems to be more villified than the 956/962. I suppose that is due to the passage of time. Hence, I would have to imagine that some day the R8 will receive a bit more praise.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder?

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Absence makes the heart grow fonder?

Yes, perhaps that is true.

But while watching the R8 these past years I kept telling everyone "love the one you're with."

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Now THAT was a RACE!

that was a race and a half at silverstone 1000km 2005 i can remember hanging off the balcony everytime the R8 and creation would come through bridge corner shouting "come on ortelli/mcnish you can do it" it was such a good race towards the end the R8 caught up a lap on the creation but then the creation switched from crusing mode to phsycotic creation mode were the car was hanging off the back of the oreca R8 it was a truly great race but i really wanted tom chilly and hayanari shimoda to have a bit more luck though that would have made one hell of a race especially since tom chilly is quick as hell at silverstone watching him blast through bridge corner flat out was something inspring it was amazing

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

that was a race and a half at silverstone 1000km 2005 i can remember hanging off the balcony everytime the R8 and creation would come through bridge corner shouting "come on ortelli/mcnish you can do it" it was such a good race towards the end the R8 caught up a lap on the creation but then the creation switched from crusing mode to phsycotic creation mode were the car was hanging off the back of the oreca R8 it was a truly great race but i really wanted tom chilly and hayanari shimoda to have a bit more luck though that would have made one hell of a race especially since tom chilly is quick as hell at silverstone watching him blast through bridge corner flat out was something inspring it was amazing

That full stop key still not working, then...

Tom Chilton put the Zytek on the grass better than anyone else. Keep him out the way in BTCC, please!

I do remember the great scrap at the end of the Silverstone race - I was in woodcote grandstands for the last 30 mins of that race, and on the start/finish straight when they made their last pit stops - if every Audi win had been like that one, maybe they wouldn't have been so villified...

[Nick49]

Hello

I was at that very wet Silverstone 1000kms race and with 20 minutes to go my wife rang me up and suggested I should leave because it was getting late. I almost laughed out loud but, in the interests of conserving my marriage, thanked her for her concern and told her what a great race it was and I wouldn't be leaving until it was over. This was certainly an occasion when the Audi R8 lived up to its "Best Sportscar" billing.

(As did the bloody English summer weather )

Nick

[Splatz the Cow]

Please exscuse my ignorance, for I don't know about the Zytec very much. Was that it's first season or second?

[KA]

2005 was Zytek's second season

[dj choc ice]

actually the zytek was in its second year as an LMP1 car the car raced in its debut race at the petit lemans in 2002 in the now defunct LMP675 class and also again raced in 2003 in the LMP675 class so when the car raced in 2005 the zytek was infact in its 3rd season of running.
think zytek if they could have kept the cars and drivers from last year i actually think that the zytek 04S would have done better than the new 06S and been quicker as well.
the new zytek for me has shown very little in the way of reliability but the car has shown a fair bit of speed at spa when i think next year the zytek will begin to show some true pace locking horns with the audi R10

oh yeah and bob even though tom Chilton did put the zytek on the grass better than anyone else it was only his second time in the car and in conditions like that having good race pace when it is your second time driving a car that is twice as powerful and 300kg less weight than what you usually drive i think that has to be commended for sure and at laguna seca tom chilton set the pole time by nearly 2 seconds and that takes some doing and i think the worst mistake he did was going back to the BTCC especially since his speed and talent is being wasted on a car that destroys its tyres in just 7 laps

[Splatz the Cow]

dj choc ice, don't worry, TheNewBob is just being mean I saw two full stops in the post above.

Your comma key is the one not working.

---------------------


So the Zytec is fast enough to take on the R10? Well, wouldn't that make it about as good as an R8?

So should we be asking, "Is the Zytec really that good?"

[jhansen]

The Zytek-04S was fast. No doubt. But it doesn't have the reliability record. I thoroughly enjoyed watching that car at Laguna Seca. And I also enjoyed watching Tom Chilton drive a flawless first stint.

If the Dysons would have had two Zyteks from 2003 to 2005, they would have had a stronger shot a championship. And certainly Audi would have had less wins in the ALMS. Or even better, think about what may have happened had another manufacturer picked up the bankrupted Reynard 02S project.

But I will say that in person, with a near side by side comparison to the R8, it is not as impressive. At least in terms of finish and build quality. You can tell by looking at the R8 that it is very well put together. The Zytek had a much more aggressive aero design though. Although maybe too aggressive for Le Mans.

The other place of distinction is that the R8 began winning races right off the bat with regularity. Indeed, it won a 12 hour race its first time out.

[cptkablamo]

Back to the Audi for just a while, this article I found sums it up faily well...

http://feedmesportscars.com/node/757

When it started out if beat the Le Mans winning BMW straight off. And it had the ability to continue winning. The lack of manufacturer competition aided its life but there is no denying that it is an all time great car.

[Splatz the Cow]

Are we being selective and choosing it from there or including it from the start?

There is no doubt that the R8R and R8C is the starting point for the R8, the fact that it lost an "R" in its name does not change its origins. In fact the R8R and R8C were not the first versions anyway, but that is when Audi hit the track in anger.

The BMW was really being wound down in 1999 and start of 2000. In fact, I don't know if it recieved any updates at all. It certainly wasn't making enough downforce and struggled with cooling, this, along with BMW being in F1, meant they did not take the cars to the last race in Adelaide. They were actually in all of the promotional material and programme, didn't travel to Australia.

Interviews with Paul Rosche indicated that the program for F1 occured a long way back, and funds were directed towrds it.

[jhansen]

Ok, I'll play along. The R8R bebuted at Sebring in 1999 and finished third and fifth in its first race, which was a 12 hour endurance run. At Le Mans the R8R finished 3rd and 4th in its second race, which was the 24 hours. Not a bad debut. And the R8R wasn't exactly blown out of the water by the Panoz and the BMW in the few races it ran in 2000. It garnered enough points for Joest and Audi to take the ALMS title. Enough said.

I'm excluding the R8C, as it was not the platform for the R8.