Do you really know the Safety Car Rules

[Bob Pearson]

I've just noticed the question from the evil one.
We don't have safety cars in our formula, and since we ask for them not to be used, we haven't had b/y's since I think the beginning of 2001. We only met them at Oulton, as I recall training consisted of a post occurance berating from the C of C, as the resulting chaos was always enormous.
I think we were told at some stage about slowing to 50 mph etc, but the problem isn't lack of tuition, I think the scheme is simply unworkable.
One of the key features is our inability to judge 50mph. We all know pretty well what speed we can turn into a given corner, but what speed that is in mph is another question.
If it was possible to do, F1 wouldn't need pit lane speed limiters. If we could drag out the slowing operation over about a lap then consequential accidents would be reduced, then add a method of telling us when the period was going to end then maybe we would have the basics of something which could work.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
One of the key features is our inability to judge 50mph. We all know pretty well what speed we can turn into a given corner, but what speed that is in mph is another question.

Bob, I have a real problem with drivers who seemingly are unable to or refuse to recognise that there is relatively safe pace to proceed around a track where the safety car boards and yellow flags are out.

Its not rocket science, 10/10ths race speed is inappropriate and dangerous, 8/10ths is still prbably too fast, lets settle on 3/4 pace with the most important thing being EVERYBODY WATCHING OUT FOR AN UNEXPECTED TURN OF EVENTS!!! Why else would we be waving a warning flag???

Just to add something to the debate and more about how it is done over here (Oran Park Historics are on this weekend, so I better be on the ball!!).

Once the Safety Car boards and Yellows are deployed, other flags are also used to control the situation:

White for service vehicles

Lack of Adhesion/oil flag for spills etc

an additional waved Yellow if the track is partially blocked by a rescue vehicle etc

What also generally happens here is that the SC Boards are out and everyone is waving not at a frantic pace but at a businesslike, consistent pace. Flag Points before the incident invariably increase the urgency of their waving as a car approaches and may guide the drivers to stay on a particular side of the track to avoid secondary collisions. These local actions are generally acknowledged by the drivers as they soon learn that when a Marshal invites them to change direction it is usually to help him avoid a tricky situation!!.

Hope this helps.....

[PVDA]

Down 'ere in sunny Australia we use the standard SC rules with progressive greens. The SC boards and single yellows go out as soon as RC make the decision to neutralise the race and the cars should (notice I say should) slow down and the SC will pick up the leader when he passes the pits.

We use the SC at all major events and most smaller events have the option if they provide a vehicle and crew to do the job.

Can someone tell me what Yellow & Black quaters are please and how it works?

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi PVDA,

As I understand it, the yellow and black quarter works as follows:

The first Y/b goes out on the start/finish and makes its way around the circuit. The car at the front of the pack will slow to an appropriate speed and all other cars will fall in behind him/her. A parade is formed around the circuit.

When the situation is safe to race again, a green goes out on start/finish and racing re-commences as it gets past the start/finish line.

The object of the exercise is to get the lead car to act as a safety car.

I saw this work very effectively at the FF Festival last year and was really impressed at how well it can work - but going back to Bob's comments, I think it can only work if all drivers are fully briefed and have agreed in advance what kind of pace they should be setting.

[Woolley]

I remember chaos ensuing when a safety car came out during a FFord race a few years ago. Donnington, I think, though it may have been Silverstone. At the time the regs didn't provide for use of the SC, so none of the drivers had been told what to do. They might have stood a chance if he'd picked up the leader!

EP is spot on with the techs on B/Y. I still fail to understand why if the Reds go both ways, the B/Y doesn't do the same - they both have the same basic function: Stop racing, now. The red means you come to a halt and the B/Y means you slow to a safe speed that allows the marshals to work in safety.

To reply to Bob, a safe speed is not how it feels from the cockpit, but imagine yourself working trackside, possibly forced to have your back to the traffic, then adopt a speed that is appropriate to that. the 50mph guide is rubbish. It may be very safe down Hangar Staight, but I'd be upset if you tried it at Melbourne Hairpin. Furhtermore, the slower you go means the fewer none racing laps you're going to cover, so it's in the drivers' best interests to go slowly too.

[EvilPumpkin]

B/Y going both ways... I guess it would depend on the shape of the circuit.

I'm not sure about the flag going out both sides. You have to figure that the cars are going to be spread out if an SC has been called for. So say you have the first car going over start finish - he knows he's the SC. If it's going out both ways, you have the guys close to the front getting their info from the flag post previous to s/f which means they're slowing down and looking for the leader, who is well ahead of them and driving around looking to pick up a train - so to catch him, they'll have to speed up past the other SC flags.

Meanwhile, you have a bunch of people racing in the middle of two sets of slow moving cars - the leader(s) and pack, and the guys who saw the flag at the post prior to start/finish - at least until the flags work their way around.

Whereas if you have it running in one direction from start/finish, the train more or less starts from start/finish and no-one is slowing down in the wrong place.

Does that make sense or do I need more coffee?

[Bob Pearson]

I notice some of you picked me up on the 50 mph issue. It actually says in the blue book "50 mph". My point is that unless you race a car with a speedo you cannot judge 50 mph. Sure you can judge a safe speed appropriate to the circumstances so having an issue with drivers who don't slow down is inappropriate for this discussion. Another major flaw is that only the leader is supposed to slow initially and the remainder are supposed to catch him and then follow at 50 mph. So you have a situation where the leader has slowed to a speed which may or may not be 50 mph and the rest of the field are supposed to catch him at a speed which must be higher than 50 but slow enough to avoid causing you all consternation.
The major accidents following showing of B/w flags and SC's result from a combination of drivers slowing to what they consider the correct speed (or 50mph ) faster than the folowing car or drivers in reduced visibilty ( wether that be rain or simply closeness of other cars ) running into the slow moving crocodile. At risk of repeating myself, i understand why you people like it, but it is bloody hair raising for us. I still see there is no comment on how the drivers are supposed to know the B/y period is about to end.

[TwoSheds]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
...
I still see there is no comment on how the drivers are supposed to know the B/y period is about to end.

AFAIK there is no warning to the drivers except of course the incident they were deployed for will (I hope) have been cleared and the track safe for racing again.

[b1ackcr0w]

Originally posted by TwoSheds
AFAIK there is no warning to the drivers except of course the incident they were deployed for will (I hope) have been cleared and the track safe for racing again.

Yep, I know where you're coming from two sheds BUT!

Recently , a colleague who regularly spectates a Castle Combe asked me why he'd been given a polite but firm instruction from the marshals near where he was spectating to remove the Chequered Flag he had on view. The answer is of course that while it's not at all confusing to us, in the highly charged and often disorientating world inside the racing car, it's a different story.

When all's said and done, the simpler and easier it is to understand a signal and abide by what it's telling you to do - the more likely it is that the desired result will prevail.

[Bob Pearson]

Absolutely Blackcrow, I couldn't have put it better!!

[Piglet]

OK to aid correct discussion - J16.1(p) from the MSA Competitors' Yearbook (AKA The Blue Book)

Yellow/black Quartered flag: This flag may be introduced by the Clerk of the Course following a report from an Observer. The flag will first be displayed at the start/finish line and then in trackwise order at all flagpoints. On passing the flag at the start/finish line, the Race leader must slow down sufficiently (to around 50mph/80kph maximum) and all competing cars must line up in order behind the Race leader who will act as pace setter. No overtaking is permitted.
The field will remain in close formation at reduced spped, for as long as it takes to clear the obstruction or remove the hazard, whatever its nature. Competitors who fail to slow down sufficiently or who overtake under the Yellow/Black flat, thereby gaining advantage, may be excluded or otherwise penalised.
When the Clerk of the Course is satisfied that the track is clear, or the problem resolved the Race will be resumed with a Green flag at the start/finish line and the simultaneous withdrawal of all Yellow/Black flags around the circuit.

[Marshal]

I put down yes, as if you read the final instructions (well, its something to do over breakfast isn't it ) they do usually spell it out. However, we do need just one set, and I'd go for the F3/GT ones as they seem most sensible.

Black & Yellows - Now I've seen them work perfectly, and if seen some awful cock ups. I'm sorry Bob, but my view is that driver education is the answer. The leader should slow the field safely to a much reduced pace (50 mph is just a guide - half racing speed perhaps - just so slow its painful) and the rest of the field should catch the "crocodile" at a reduced pace - but they should try to catch it. As for when its going green, the fact the incident has been cleared is one thing, either that or the bloke waving the green flag at the startline.

[Woolley]

Actually, Bob, I'm not quite sure we do like them that much. I've had a situation where we were going out on the second lap (the leaders had clearly missed it the first time) only to fing they were still at full speed. By the time it was safe for the race to continue, there was only one lap left. I have seen it work well, but there seem to be problems more often than not. EP, some good points there - I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'd rather make sure everyone was aware as soon as possible - maybe they only slow when they reach the s/f (As in NASCAR?) But if full course yellow can work in other categories, it shouldn't be too difficult for someone to arrange a suitable system.

Wouldn't it just be easier to send a safety car out? I really don't think it does slow things down any more than the B/Y, and if the drivers get more practice, they should get it right more often!!!

BTW I also vote for the F3/GT system, which I think is what everyone used a few years ago anyway.

[Bob Pearson]

I like the idea of not slowing,(apart from for the actual incident) until the start line, that would take away the risk of additional accident, which, because of their nature will almost certainly be more serious than the original incident. If we could then see a way of the competitors knowing when it was going to go green in advance of seeing the flag I believe we would have a system which could work.

[EvilPumpkin]

It probably would be easier to send an SC out Woolley, but, certainly for Club racing, it's dependent on:

a) Can the org club/classes afford an SC
b) Can they get their hands on an appropriate car
c) Can they get their hands on an appropriate driver

Let's face it - safety will nearly always be sacrificed to the great gods of motorsport dosh

[Teletubby]

I believe that BARC are supplying a safety car for all of their meetings this year!

[Bob Pearson]

That is interesting, I know nothing of that, and it certainly hasn't been circulated among the driver's reps. I will try to find out if that is the case.

[blueblackboy]

One of the main problems with the B/Y is the fact that very often the first flag marshal from the startline doesn't know it's coming out until the leader has crossed the startline and the C of C has shown him the flag. At Oulton it's only about 100yards to the first flag point and trying to pick up the flag and put it out before the leader gets to you is mighty tricky. I've seen a number of occasions where the leader has overtaken the B/Y flag despite slowing down and the situation then arises where the flag marshals round the circuit are confused because they've seen the leader go past, see the B/Y flag and then wonder whether or not they're doing the right thing by putting out their flag. The drivers at the front, meanwhile, have probably caught a glimpse of the flag at the startline but not seen any more and are now thinking, do I slow down and risk being overtaken (and maybe lose the race), or do I carry on as normal? I think it would be far safer and better to put the flag out both ways - if an incident requires the B/Y flag then it is obviously a dangerous situation and to have cars racing round until they cross the startline seems silly to me. If there was an incident at the last corner that required the B/Y flag then the drivers would pass the scene at full racing speed at least once before they were required to slow down. If the flags went out both ways then the cars would be slowed down much more quickly and allow the incident to be cleared more quickly as you wouldn't have to wait for them all to come past.

[Woolley]

Lots of good thinking going on here. Hadn't considered safety cars were a cost issue, but perhaps all circuits ought to have one? As far as I know all Hot Rod circuits do, so the big ones ought to be able to manage something.

Re racing back to the line - shouldn't cause problems. They're doing that anyway at the moment, but only seeing the B/Y when they arrive at the line. Knowing in advance it's going to be there, because it's already showing has to improve safety. The actual incident will be covered by the appropriate yellows, and if it's too serious for that, then the reds should be out anyway. As for advance warning of the green, that could work the same way. You see B/Y but it doesn't apply until you reach the line, ditto green flags, put them out all around, racing resumes at the start line. OK, that's going to need some driver education, but it's more straightforward than the current situation.

Blueblackboy describes that situation well and I've seen similar several times. Once it was so confusing that the race was red flagged to sort it out, causing an even longer delay.

[Bob Pearson]

I reckon you have got that about right Woolley, let's hope someone from the MSA is reading this!!

[EvilPumpkin]

Someone in the MSA that can read AND will listen to marshals.....? *Twilight zone music*

[Bryan Degerlund]

As Chief Startline Marshal for BRSCC-SE at Brands Hatch, I am responsible for controlling the B/Y under instruction from the CoC. We were one of the first clubs to use the flag, under the leadership of the late John Nicol, and with the driuvers who regularly race at Brands, it has become a very useful tool.
When first shown the flag the leader is not expexted to instantly slow to 50mph, the incident itself will be covered by waved yellows, so he/she should be travelling at an appropriate speed there. The next time the lead driver passes the startline, however, I would expect the leader to have slowed sufficiently and for the rest of the pack to have caught up into the "crocodile". I can then indicate to slow down if I consider they are passing too quickly, speed up if, as sometimes happens, they slow too much and create bunching concerns behind, or a thumbs-up to maintain the present speed. As it is important for the marshals and recovery crews to get maximum track time, it is important that the crocodile is kept as tight as possible, and stragglers should be encouraged to catch up as quickly as possible. This is why I am reluctant to support b/y flags being shown full-course. I will try and assist the at-incident crew by radioing the number of the last car.
to be continued...

[Bryan Degerlund]

continued..

At the end of the b/y period, the green flag will be waved. The Blue Book clearly says racing will re-commence at the start/finish line (and any overtakers prior to this will be reported!). In addition, the drivers will probably be more aware of the status of the clear-up than I am.
So i see no need for a pre-warning. At the start position we try to re-commence racing as soon as possible, therefore to delay racing by a further lap to say we will be restarting seems counter-productive.
As I said, the above is from my experience at Brands Hatch where the system normally works well. The procedure is clearly defined in the Blue Book so I have little sympathy with those who ignore it.

See you all at CART/BTCC if you are going.

[JimW]

Someone in the MSA that can read AND will listen to marshals.....? *Twilight zone music*

Of course they can read; how else would they know how to do the opposite of what we want?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by JimW
Of course they can read; how else would they know how to do the opposite of what we want?

I know and respect you very much Jim but......

do I read a latent protest in this post???

Most of what I have learned as regards marshalling has come from people like yourself, are you going the same way as Jim L and maybe quitting?

For the sake of every trainee that may come across you I hope not!!

Sorry if I've read more into that post then you meant but, the marshalling community needs people like you Jim to enlighten and educate the next generation.

Cheers,

Stu