Brabham BT 2 - Page 2

Bryan Miller · 25 Apr 2005, 07:35 (Ref:1558843)

Will await developements with interest.
However do you agree with my reasoning??

RAP · 25 Apr 2005, 08:40 (Ref:1558844)

Geddes Yeates ????
I remember as a driver in the late 60s but I'm dubious that he raced in 63-64 in FJ. Maybe therefore an entrant/owner for someone else or not the first owner?
RAP

Bryan Miller · 25 Apr 2005, 09:08 (Ref:1558845)

For the record only,
My old FJ-8-62 has now gone to Dave Zurlinden of Salinas , California and still retains it's chassis plate.
Dave has contacted me and I will try and help where poss.
Bryan.

David McKinney · 25 Apr 2005, 10:17 (Ref:1558846)

I believe Dick Thompson was a Cunningham driver in 1962 - my records have him sharing the Brabham wheel with other team members.
But I don't think Hap Sharp was a Cunningham man

Ted Walker · 25 Apr 2005, 13:59 (Ref:1558847)

Bryan .It seems to make sense at the moment

Wayne Mitchell · 9 May 2005, 15:19 (Ref:1558848)

Ted: We need photos of the BT2 dashboards if available. Mine has 4 small guage holes and looks original welding on sheet metal dashboard. It would solve the question of which car is which since I understand all others I have questioned seem to have only 3 2" diam guage holes. Motor mounts may also yield a clue. It seems as though we need to keep this pot boiling to resolve the question before us. Wayne Mitchell

Ted Walker · 10 May 2005, 07:34 (Ref:1558849)

Wayne.Original motor mounts would be interesting as to whether it was BMC of Ford powered. I will look to see what dash shots I have.

Wayne Mitchell · 18 May 2005, 15:15 (Ref:1558850)

Ted: Did you receive photos of chassis with engine mounts and dashboard dimples and guage holes showing. Emailed directly to you. I am assuming the holes are for guages for Oil Pressure, Oil Temperature, Water Temperature and Fuel Pressure. Not using the later combination Water Temp and Oil pressure found on later cars. Awaiting your comments. And anyone else who has knowledge of these things. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Ted Walker · 23 May 2005, 08:05 (Ref:1558851)

Wayne . Photos arrived OK.Its obviously a BT2 as we all know.The spanner I was talking about earlier in the thread was that the "ex Roy James train robber BT6 that was sold to NZ in the 60s is in fact a BT2 so which car is that ??????? and where is FJ-1-63 ??????

Wayne Mitchell · 23 May 2005, 19:43 (Ref:1558852)

Was FJ -1-63 the Roy James car? If it really was a BT2, Then perhaps it is BT-1-62 or obviously 1 of the others missing from the Bryan Millar list. By my record of what has been disclosed on the thread, it could have been 1,2,7,9 or part of th 11/Carnet/Stillwell. This leaves my car to be one of these, less the one identified as Roy James's car. Anyone have photo of dash area currently of the purportedly James car? 2 with dimples 6 with tubes and sheet reinforcement only. This area is most obvious ID of model. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Ted Walker · 24 May 2005, 07:29 (Ref:1558853)

Wayne. I havethe photos of the NZ car and its a BT2 just like yours !!! I am looking through my negatives for the BT2 on the Brabham stand at the Racing Car Show,

Wayne Mitchell · 1 Nov 2005, 15:35 (Ref:1558854)

Ted: Any progress with photos from Racing car show of 1962 of the BT2 on display?
Season is over so there may be time now. Thanks Wayne Mitchell

Marcus Mussa · 5 Nov 2005, 10:21 (Ref:1558855)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Mitchell

Was FJ -1-63 the Roy James car? If it really was a BT2, Then perhaps it is BT-1-62 or obviously 1 of the others missing from the Bryan Millar list. By my record of what has been disclosed on the thread, it could have been 1,2,7,9 or part of th 11/Carnet/Stillwell. This leaves my car to be one of these, less the one identified as Roy James's car. Anyone have photo of dash area currently of the purportedly James car? 2 with dimples 6 with tubes and sheet reinforcement only. This area is most obvious ID of model. Cheers Wayne Mitchell

Re-reading the Mike Lawrence book about Ron Tauranac I see that they never bothered too much about type numbers in the early days of MRD. Therefore it would be likely that chassis number FJ-1-63 just meant it was the first chassis Formula Junior built in 1963. If it is a BT2 type chassis instead of a BT6 type chassis, which has apparently been established by Ted Walker, then it seems to be an addition to “our” list of BT2 cars. These start at chassis FJ-2-62 and end at FJ-11-62 (10 cars) plus FJ-1-63 i.e. a total of 11 cars (plus the original MRD). This tallies with the count given in the Lawrence book (although he says 11 cars were "built in 1962").
For those of you who like to keep track of these cars, I am now the owner of chassis FJ-6-62 (ex-Olthoff etc.). – bought in July 2005 entirely thanks to this thread! At least Wayne got those photos he wanted!

David McKinney · 5 Nov 2005, 12:05 (Ref:1558856)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

it would be likely that chassis number FJ-1-63 just meant it was the first chassis Formula Junior built in 1963. If it is a BT2 type chassis instead of a BT6 type chassis, which has apparently been established by Ted Walker, then it seems to be an addition to “our” list of BT2 cars. These start at chassis FJ-2-62 and end at FJ-11-62 (10 cars) plus FJ-1-63 i.e. a total of 11 cars (plus the original MRD)

Just the teeniest hitch with that theory, Marcus
The car which purports to be FJ-12-62 is not the same as the one which raced in 1963 as FJ-1-63

allenbrown · 5 Nov 2005, 12:16 (Ref:1558857)

I need a summary

Code:

Chassis  Original owner                    Current owner
FJ-2-62  Cunningham (US)
FJ-3-62  Gardner (UK) – Youl (AUS)         Australia 
FJ-4-62  Jean Moench (F)                   Simon Ham (UK)
FJ-5-62  Jo Schlesser (F) 
FJ-6-62  Bob Olthoff (SA)                  Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62  ?
FJ-8-62  works/Gardner (UK)                Dave Zurlinden (US)
FJ-9-62  Geddes Yeates (UK)
FJ-10-62 Ernie De Vos (Can)
FJ-12-62 David Walker (AUS)
FJ-1-63  ?

Notes
FJ-3-62 to Gavin Youl (AUS) then to Geoff McClelland.
FJ-4-62 then to Klaas ‘Jimmy’ Twisk 1963 - Ray Moore for F3 1964 (killed?) ... Australia ... Harper c1990 – Simon Ham 1997.
FJ-8-62 later rebuilt by Bryan Miller
FJ-10-62 Ernie DeVos of Montreal raced to victories in Canada and the eastern US in 1963. Advertised CT&T March 1964.
FJ-11-62 was a BT4

Mysteries
FC Ward (UK)
Second US car
Who drove the Yeates car?

David McKinney · 5 Nov 2005, 15:28 (Ref:1558858)

Here's my version - E&OE
Brabham BT2
FJ-2-62 Briggs Cunningham USA (various drivers)
FJ-3-62 Gavin Youl UK and Australia, later Geoff McClelland and others, now Graeme Brown, Queensland
FJ-4-62 Inter Auto-Course/Jean Moench. Then as on your list
FJ-5-62 Inter Auto-Course/Jo Schlesser
FJ-6-62 Bob Olthoff then via Frank Williams to Far East (L C Kwan, S Y Tam etc). Later to Australia and in 2000 to UK. Now Marcus Mussa
FJ-7-62 Earl Jones - your second US car?
FJ-8-62 works/Gardner, then to Australia with Alec Mildren, Len Deaton, Barry Collerson. Bryan Miller 1980s. Ken Hastings 1990s. Now John Streets, USA
FJ-9-62 Geddes Yeates
FJ-10-62 Ernie de Vos
FJ-11-62 apparently never a BT2
FJ-12-62 Scuderia Veloce and Alec Mildren in Australia: drivers Dave Walker, Ralph Sach, Frank Gardner, Kevin Bartlett. Then Mike Champion, Phil West, Brian Page and others. Bryan Miller 1980s, now Colin Haste
mystery 1 F C Ward
mystery 2 car imported to NZ 1965, believed to be the ex-James BT6 but apparently a BT2 of unknown origin

Does anyone know which car Mike Harrison raced in Historic events from 1976 (or earlier), and still had in 1990?

RAP · 5 Nov 2005, 16:21 (Ref:1558859)

FJ-9-62 Geddes Yeates

I previously queried this and am still dubious. The F1R FJ fact book has no mention of Geddes Yeates in the 1962-64 period. As suggested, he could of course be the owner with someone else driving but it would be good if Ted Walker could confirm the source/reliability of this attribution. At 31/1/65 Brands F1R attributes this chassis to Roger Mac. I spectated at that meeting and noted the entry as a BT2, no doubt based on what the commentator said. The car appears in a photo in Autosport, according to the caption (race no not readable). Could this be the Frank Ward car?

Ted Walker · 7 Nov 2005, 09:12 (Ref:1558860)

The Mike Harrison car was never identified.Wayne Im on the case in the next week or soI assume that FJ-11-62 was a "fiddle No" to get a Tasman car imported as a junior. Does ANYONE have a photo showing the plate on the dash ????????

Marcus Mussa · 8 Nov 2005, 14:18 (Ref:1558861)

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McKinney

FJ-7-62 Earl Jones - your second US car?

David, how did you pick up his name? Is he the one who ran in USRRC in the 60's?

David McKinney · 8 Nov 2005, 14:50 (Ref:1558862)

Sorry - it's like that in my files - can't recall how it got there!
I've always presumed it was the same man

Marcus Mussa · 8 Nov 2005, 17:27 (Ref:1558863)

I had the following info from Duncan Rabagliati, earlier this year:

• FJ-10-62 Ernie Devos had BT2 FJ-10-62 in 1962 (in Canada) The car went to Hap Sharp [ 63/64] and then Earl Jones [ 65]

I thought the name Earl Jones rang a bell. I think in fact it may be the other way around, i.e. Hap Sharp then DeVos – as Sharp is shown as the entrant and driver of a BT2 at Road America on 16/6/62. Also DeVos seems to be still driving a Cooper in 1962. When others drove the Cunningham car they were always entered by Cunningham – for this reason I feel Sharp must have owned chassis 10, and that this is the 2nd US car.

There is another BT2 racing in the USA (apart from the Zurlinden car) – Wayne was going to try to find out about this car. Presumably Wayne’s car will turn out to be the other – I think probably it is the Cunningham car, in which case this other car is chassis 10. The photos of Wayne’s “car” show an extra instrument hole (compared with my car) and this tallies with the photo of the car used for the Blunsden test which said he drove the first BT2. The additional instrument was a fuel pressure gauge. The “other” car is definitely a BT2 (I have seen photos, now even I know what to look for!). It even has the inboard rear brakes like mine. Actually just looking over those photos again I am wondering if it is not the Mike Harrison car – the roll-over bar stay is the same (back to the rear chassis member, this of course being a “modern” addition). Mysteriouser and mysteriouser.

Marcus Mussa · 8 Nov 2005, 17:38 (Ref:1558864)

Coincidentally another forum whose name cannot be mentioned carries a thread which says that Ernie DeVos was killed in March this year in a cycling accident (like Wollek)...

**John Turner** · 8 Nov 2005, 18:07 (Ref:1558865)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAQ

we do not generally allow links to other forums. Exceptions may be made for something relevant to the discussion, but please check with the Moderator of the forum before you post.

Marcus, if it's relevant to this thread, you may post a link!

allenbrown · 8 Nov 2005, 20:38 (Ref:1558866)

We have the advert in March 1964 for DeVos and also, assuming it's right, this race at Harewood Acres in July 1963 so the Hap Sharp dates don't look right if the car did go from DeVos to Sharp.

Allen

Neptune · 9 Nov 2005, 03:56 (Ref:1558867)

I have the 1964 Mid-Ohio racing annual, which of course has photos from 1963 season and DeVos is shown racing in the FJr race, support race for USSRC, in a Brabham. It is the program book from my first ever spectating visit to Mid-Ohio, May 1964, as a guest of one of my high school teachers.

Roger

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