Earnhardt Jr. crash

[JohnSSC]

The team reported that the impact broke the fuel filler neck causing the leak/discharge.

The corner marshalls have to be able to get to the accident safely in order to fight the fire! Based on the amount of flames and the area engulfed, a 10 lb fire bottle is not going to be of much use.

[Liz]

And keep in mind that corner workers are not wearing fire suits. They are no doubt trained to avoid giving the rescue crew extra patients to deal with; that is, to approach the fire safely. Also in order to get there much quicker would they not have to turn their backs to oncoming traffic on a live track?

Apparently the accident was worse than what it looked like on TV, but I'm sure the lawyers are going over it with the traditional fine toothed comb, even as we speak.

I am just very thankful that he was not worse hurt or killed. And I am praying for a swift and uneventful recovery for him.

[JAG]

The crash was on ITV evening news in the UK tonight.

F1 doesn't even get on this program!

[Kicking-back]

Liz - can't really see an issue for the lawyers on this one.

JAG - yes it does!

[Adam43]

I guess it is implied that a NASCAR driver would sue?

I hope it doesn't put him off Sportscar racing. I'm sure it won't.

Also it strikes me that Nordic wasn't having a go at Marshals, it seemed more like just an observation. One which was qualified with a reason why it is difficult.

Whatever, I presume Dale has left for home now?

[Mags]

Yes, they have released him. He suffered 2nd degree burns to 6% of his body. They SAY he is racing this weekend but I can't see it.

[JAG]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Liz - can't really see an issue for the lawyers on this one.

JAG - yes it does!

Not unless they are talking about the threat of Silverstone losing the F1 GP or the tobacco argument

[Tim Northcutt]

He seemed quite dazed right after the impact....looked like he hit pretty hard....


I think he'll try to tough it out for NASCAR this weekend, but that would be a tall order for him to run....he also apparently hurt his knee in the accident....

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Mags
Yes, they have released him. He suffered 2nd degree burns to 6% of his body. They SAY he is racing this weekend but I can't see it.

Thanks.

[Mags]

I think he's nutz.

[Kicking-back]

I expect he will race. No reason not to.

The hospital said they'd seen worse burns from sunburn.

[Liz]

AdamA, it implies that an AMERICAN would sue, not any particular category of American. Americans file suit whenever anything happens, just to keep their hand in. Although I have heard that Junior was not wearing his Nomex underwear "because it's just a practice" and thus the burns to his, er, juniors. Unless it can be proved that Corvette is required to stage a Panty Parade to make sure their drivers are properly dressed, I think he's out of luck on that one.

Incidentally, ABC News had a 2 minute special in which they explained how Junior's life had been saved -- by the improvement in NASCAR technology following the death of Earnhardt Sr.!!!! In other words, the people at ABC news thought Sonoma was a NASCAR race and that NASCAR runs Corvettes! There was no mention whatever of the type of racing he was doing at the time or the series it was in. Junior is a NASCAR driver -- therefore, the race was a NASCAR race. Whatever happened to fact checking and research?

[JohnSSC]

Liz:

You are just flat wrong. Americans do not "file suit whenever anything happens, just to keep their hand in."

I certainly hope this is just an example of poorly written sarcasm as there is no truth to this statement. If this is not sarcasm, then can you provide any facts that would support your statement?

Yes, there are a large number of suits in America. This has to do with the fact that the legal system has been designed to give access to everyone, not just those that have money.

For example in England if a litigant brings suit and loses, they potentially have to pay the defendant's costs. While on the surface this sounds "fair" it actually serves as a disincentive to those with limited means who might justifiably have filed suit but are unwilling to take a risk that would include a financial penalty. Yes, it may increase costs all around but in a sense then that can be viewed as a "cost" that keeps our Courts available to all.

Many of the suits brought during the Civil Rights Era here would never have been brought if the plaintiff had the expectation that they might have to bear the defendant's legal costs.

I agree that fact checking and research should be a priority in journalism, from the humblest local paper or web-based fanzine to the CNN/Network operations.

[JohnSSC]

Back on topic. Dale may or may not participate this week. The limiting factor is not the burns - it is the possibility of Post-Concussive Syndrome if not a Concussion itself.

Dale got himself in trouble last year for racing 5 months while experiencing Post-Concussive Syndrome. NOT a good thing. It is something NASCAR will be careful to review with his/their doctors before this week's race.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Liz
AdamA, it implies that an AMERICAN would sue, not any particular category of American

More general than what I guessed. Cheers.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
Back on topic. Dale may or may not participate this week. The limiting factor is not the burns - it is the possibility of Post-Concussive Syndrome if not a Concussion itself.

Was he concussed after that accident? I thought he only suffered burns and minor injuries to his ankle. (I might have missed it).

[JohnSSC]

He went in backwards at a high rate of speed. The concern is that he had lingering effects last year. The possibility for damage increases as you accrue concussions or experience one of higher severity.

He really should be examined carefully to ensure that he did not incur any neurologic damage.

Concussions are nothing to play with. There is often damage to the brain tissues themselves that can manifest in an bleeding/swelling - kind of like an aneuryism. The symptomology does not always present immediately after the incident.

[paul-collins]

He apparently was unconcious briefly before the fire, and dazed after scrambling out of the car.

It's amazing how adrenaline can overwhelm brain injuries, isn't it? Consider Ron Fellows or - worse - Allan McNish this year at Le Mans, and that they were able to get the car home before collapsing...

I agree that he ought to be watched carefully. Eric Lindros (or, to pick an American, Pat LaFontaine) are case studies in post-concussion syndrome and its lingering effects.

Aside (and potential thread hijack): John, as far as litigation is concerned, I see your point about keeping the courts free for all, but I have to ask: if Americans were aware of how much they individually pay for the benefit of this availability, would they happily pay it? The argument against shared cost is used to thwart social programs like Medicare all the time.

Although I doubt anyone inside or outside the US would have any problem with the system as it stands if the rewards were consistently in line with the transgression. Excessive "damages awarded" grab all the headlines.

[JohnSSC]

Paul:

If he was unconscious then he definitely should not be racing this weekend. Dale needs to be cognizant of not only Eric Lindros, but his brother Brett who had so many concussions he had to give up hockey at (I believe) age 24 or so. No sense in jeopordizing his career for one race.

We can take the litigation thing to pm's, however if the mods would allow me this one brief note:

Litigation awards DO get big headlines. Invariably, these awards are taken to appeal and reduced dramatically - THAT never makes the headlines.

The legal system here is designed with checks and balances also and they work quite well in fact. It is just the headline without any contectual reference makes it easy to generalize the "facts" when the reality is the awards are far lower after appeal then the original award.

Judges will often correct what was an award given by a jury because they overstepped the facts of the case. It is also important to remember that a very small percentage of suits brought ever go to trial. Many suits are heard by a judge only - no jury is involved.

Thank you mods for your patience!

[LouisTheShark]

"Incidentally, ABC News had a 2 minute special in which they explained how Junior's life had been saved -- by the improvement in NASCAR technology following the death of Earnhardt Sr.!!!! In other words, the people at ABC news thought Sonoma was a NASCAR race and that NASCAR runs Corvettes! There was no mention whatever of the type of racing he was doing at the time or the series it was in. Junior is a NASCAR driver -- therefore, the race was a NASCAR race. Whatever happened to fact checking and research?"

Actually this is not completely wrong.

After the Earnhardt Sr. accident, GM Racing did a lot of research and testing on improving driver safety. While GM Racing did involve many different forms of racing, a lot of real world data and support came from NASCAR because of the large number of races they run. The research resulted in GM Racing developing some new safety devices and making suggestions in construction changes to better protect the driver. The Corvette program was very much involved in this research as some new ideas they developed were implemented and tested in the Corvette.

GM Racing produced a one hour presentation that was shown to almost every professional racing group about 2 years ago. While they stop short of making specific recommendations for each style of racing, the information presented is very informative and clearly favors some "solutions" over others.

[Bob Riebe]

The legal system here is designed with checks and balances also and they work quite well in fact. It is just the headline without any contectual reference makes it easy to generalize the "facts" when the reality is the awards are far lower after appeal then the original award.

The checks and balances system sprang fatal leaks decades ago.
There had beem a plethora of cases that make the courts appear asinine to have even been heard in the first place; McDonalds "hot" coffee; suing fast food for selling food that makes people fat, that there is no defense of the system that now thrives, and makes lawyers extremely rich, on "social change" via lawsuit.

Bob

[Tim Northcutt]

Posted by Nordic:

the marshals seemed in a bit of a dither as well, not easy when confronted with an exploding car I guess.

Posted by 73_Gstock:

Do you think two 10 pound extinguishers would have done any good at all on that ragin fireball? I saw one corner worker using it to keep the flames away from the station and clearing a path to the car. He went to Junior as soon as it was safe for him.



I agree with you, 73_Gstock....

I watched "Windtunnel" last night and heard some of the most incredibly stupid comments from fans and viewers regarding the course workers in this incident....

Just for the Record:

Those marshalls were doing exactly what they were supposed to do....

1. The flagman stayed at his post to communicate to the drivers...he should never leave his post and never drop the flag for any reason in order to ensure that ALL drivers on the track know what is going on and are safe...

2. The corner workers wear cotton shirts and pants...Dale was safer in his NOMEX (at least in the first few seconds) than they were when the fire exploded.....

3. The workers with the extinguishers did what "professional fire fighters do when they enter a blaze...they put out flames to quickly clear a path for themselves to the source of the flames (the fuel tank and filler neck) to get the fire under control and dissipated as quickly as possible while others assisted from the passenger side to put it out in the cockpit area....

4.. all of this happened withn a matter of seconds...not minutes...those corner workers are supposed to handle the situation as best as they can until the Safety Crews in in the red trucks and red fireproof suits can arrive to fight the brunt of the fire....


One Last Note:

I have seen corner workers literally put their lives at risk (fire suit or no fire suit) when a driver was pinned in a burning car, or slumped over the wheel and clearly unconscious....

I thought they did their job well....

[Kicking-back]

Indeed. No criticism of the marshals is warranted on this occasion. Well done to them.

[JohnSSC]

Off-topic, but:

Bob:

The "McDonald's Case" has become a convenient whipping-boy, hasn't it? Unfortunately, the "award" was hugely reduced on appeal. There were also other factors involved than someone simply spilling coffee on themselves.

This is not the place to discuss - if I get a chance I will pm you a website or two that further details what happened. This has become quite an "Urban Legend!"

Sorry once again, mods!

On-topic: I agree that the marshalls did their job well!

[pounetbf]

Tim

I have been marshall 10 years, including in Le Mans, and you have perfectly discribed the job

congratulation

And a lot of critics come from those who have never practiced but know everything better than anybody else...
(they are generally working for "the media's")