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2 Jul 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1964870)
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#26 | ||
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Update- added RA2/038
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2 Jul 2007, 18:54 (Ref:1964871)
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#27 | ||
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Update- corrected details for RA2/46 (Thanks for spotting that!)
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2 Jul 2007, 18:57 (Ref:1964872)
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Update for RA2/66
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2 Jul 2007, 19:07 (Ref:1964874)
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#29 | ||
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Quote:
The Brun/Ralf Goring car described as AF16849- That's obviously not a BMW Motorsport 'RA' chassis number, so is it one given by the team, in the same way the BMW GB cars were known as CC29/30, or is it a car that was built up by Brun independently, without using a BMW Motorsport chassis? |
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2 Jul 2007, 19:15 (Ref:1964875)
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#30 | |
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I was looking at a copy of the 'Autosport' report from the Zolder ETC round in 85, and found this:
Fifth on the grid was the leading BMW, as normal, the leading Schnitzer car with Gerhard Berger and Roberto Ravaglia aboard. This was a brand new chassis --- Schnitzer's 12th 635CSi --- and it was a late starter, built up only after the team had leased one of their Spa cars to Bob Jane in Australia for the Bathurst event. The new car misbehaved itself. Berger, with 'qualifying' red and silver racing boots --- more fitted to a boxing ring so they said --- found the beast taxing indeed http://www.davebarton.com/Volvo_Grou..._articles.html We know that RA2/55 was the Schnitzer car that went to Bathurst, and RA2/60 was the 'skeleton' liveried Spa winner. Looking at the chassis list, RA2/75 is also listed as a 1985 Schnitzer car- could this be the new car debuted at Zolder? |
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3 Jul 2007, 10:22 (Ref:1964878)
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#31 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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In '84 Brun Motorsport ran usually two but occasionally three cars,two being brand new Eggenberger built.The cars were driven byBrun himself,Hans Stuck,Leopold von Bayern(his car being built by Brun Motorsport)and Mario Ketterer.On one occasion at the Avus round,Manfred Winkelhock raced one of the cars under the Equipe Ligui Moly banner but it was actually a Brun car.In the final points table,Von Bayern was 10th,Brun 13th,Stuck 16th and Ketterer was 21st.Ketterer also ran his car in Euro hillclimbs.The team raced a single car at the Nurburgring 24 hours,Stuck,Harald Grohs and Dieter Quester being the drivers,they retired after an accident.Two cars were retained for 1985 and as mentioned earlier one car was sold to Ralf Goring.I do not know why this had the unusual chassis number AF 16849.At the end of 1985 one car was probably bought by Kurt Konig.I am pretty certain that the Jagermeister orange car was one of the Eggenberger built vehicles.
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3 Jul 2007, 10:28 (Ref:1964879)
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#32 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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The ex Schnitzer chassis 31 was bought by Volker Strycek and run by Gubin Motorsport (a BMW dealership based in Bochum),they also sponsored the car.Strycek was champion in '84 and was 9th in '85.He eventually became the competion boss for Opel for some time.The car was then sold to Manfred Niederhof for '86.They did however build a brand new car for Karl-Heinz Schaferfor '86.At this stage of its competition life the 635 was not competitive and few results were gained in the sprint format of the German championship.
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3 Jul 2007, 20:59 (Ref:1964880)
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#33 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,405
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Update- added RA1/31
RA1/022 BMW France sold to Frank Sytner sold to Johnstone BMW in NZ now owned by Dougal McGibbon (NZ) RA1/25 Brun Motorsport? (Jagermeister) Stuck- 1984 DTM Champion now in Museum of Science & Industry, Stuttgart RA1/27 Mullerbrau Team, Germany RA1/029 BS Automotive (Cheylesmore) replacement chassis for RA1/001 1983 BTCC- Stuck 1984 BTCC (Grundig)- David Kennedy 1985- sold to Brian Chatfield, used in a few BTCC rounds 1986- Manns Racing- (Barry Barnes) at Donington ETCC round- DNS? 1986- Barry Robinson- appeared at Silverstone TT 1988- Peter Buxtorf subsequent owners, Nigel Smith, Kevin Underwood, Peter Speis. Now with Alex Elliott? RA1/31 1983 Schnitzer (Meisterfoto)- Bellof 1984- Gubin Motorsport- Volker Strycek, 1984 DTM Champion 1986- Manfred Neiderhof RA2/034 Schnitzer (Original Teile) 1984 ETCC (Quester/Stuck) 1985 sold to Simon Emmerling in Australia Still with Emmerling, rebuilt into Sports Sedan with Holden or Chevy V8. Crashed 2006 |
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5 Jul 2007, 12:21 (Ref:1964889)
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#34 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2007
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The continuing saga of RA2/046
I have just spoken with John Clark, and he says that there were only ever two RHD 635's, and that they were definately built in the UK by CC Motorsport.
We know that RA2/046 was delivered in 1984 to "Grace Racing GB" as a RHD car. We believe that it was crashed early in the 84 season, possibly in testing or at Donington. Ted Grace, before he passed away, said that it was stripped, repaired & sat in his workshop as a bare shell. It was then rebuilt to Production Car Specs for Barrie Williams, who raced it in 1985. It was then sold to John Morton in New Zealand. We also know that BMW GB / CC Motorsport had two BTCC cars, RA2/037 & RA2/039, which were given CC Motorsport chassis numbers CC29 (driven by James Weaver) and CC30 (Vince Woodman). CC30 was crashed at Donington and reshelled and became 'CC31'. In 1985 both cars (and spare car RA001) were sold to Frank Sytner, who had sold his 1984 cars, both LHD, presumably RA2/017 and RA2/022, to New Zealand. CC29 (RHD) was sold on to Mike Newman and raced in BTCC events in 1985-7. CC31 (RHD) raced by Sytner 1985 BTCC, sold to Charlie O'Brien/Erle McRae Motorsport and raced at Sandown & Bathurst. Therefore it is possible that chassis 046, was in fact the car that was crashed, presumably donating its running gear to a new shell, and ended up in Ted Grace's workshop. Frank Sytner is reported to have said "it would never be the same & didn't want to use it".I imagine that at the time, parts were bought and sold quite freely between teams. The car that John Clark raced with David Sutherland at the 84 TT was LHD and therefore was either 017 or 022. So this all gives some credence to what KA thought - that 046 had come from another team. It also fits with what Gerry Hodges knows. John also said that Ted Grace never owned any cars - he just prepared them on behalf of others. So it is possible that 046 never actually raced in a Group A event, unless it was raced very early in 84! I'm going to keep going with this one; I've yet to hear from Frank Sytner and I want to speak to a couple of other drivers.... Stay Tuned !!!!!!!!! Cheers Bill Cutler |
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5 Jul 2007, 12:59 (Ref:1964890)
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#35 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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In yet another attempt to get to the bottom of the Sytner cars, I have just gone through my files again and re-read all my notes from the time as well as any correspondence I received including a letter from Frank Sytner from 23 January 1986.
The first Sytner car was started in Decenber '82 By Ted Grace whe was based in Pershore,Worcestershire as a preparation expert not a team owner as such. The car was finished by March/April of '83 and was left hand drive. It had an Alpina prepared engine and was in long distance trim with air jacks built in as well as bigger fuel tank. This was used by Frank in the Trimoco British series on 5 occasions. It also raced at the Donington and Silverstone ETCC races co-driven by Brian Muir. Sadly on the way home from Silverstone, Muir collapsed and died. In '84 the original car was initially used for Frank in the British series but was crashed heavily at the Silverstone ETCC race where Barrie Williams was the co-driver. The car was repaired with a brand new ''rear end''. A new car was built by Ted Grace in August '84. At the Silverstone ETCC a second car ran driven by John Clark/David Sutherland, they were 15th. A car had also been run at the Spa 24 hours for Frank and the Simons brothers from Belgium, they were 9th. A group N(Production class) car was built by Ted grace for Barrie Williams (the car looked like a replica of the Sytner Group A version). This was for sale in Autosport 14/4/88 at £10,000 from Ted Grace. The newly built car was sold to John Morton in New Zealand and Sytner co drove this with him in early '85. The older Group A car was retained into '85 but was also eventually sold to Graham Johnson/John Morton. Last edited by chunterer; 4 Nov 2008 at 12:36. |
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5 Jul 2007, 13:21 (Ref:1964891)
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#36 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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At the start of '85 Sytner acquired the three BMW GB/CC Motorsport cars one of which was the original Eggenberger car CC had raced, this was sold in June '85 to probably Raymond van Hove in Belgium.One car was sold almost immediately to Mike Newman(ex-Weaver)(who still owns it).Sytner ran a car in the British series,winning at Silverstone (still in the original left hand drive car). At both British ETCC races two cars were entered.At the Silverstone round a car was hired by South Africans Tony Viana/Nicola Bianco#35 who were 8th.This car was ex BMW GB as it still was in white with silver panels and was sponsored by Scope magazine.The dates of sales are critical here and I do not have this information.Sytners remaining ex-BMW GB car(ex-Woodman) was eventually sold to Charlie O'Brien in Australia and he got it in time to race at Bathurst.This leaves me not understanding exactly which car Sytner actually ran for the bulk of the British series and how two cars were entered at the Donington ETCC(April)and Silverstone(September)if he had sold on cars to Newman,Morton(for races down under early in '85) and the Belgian team!!It seems that Sytner had a total of five 635's passing through his hands plus the Group'N' car which is sort of his and all are accounted for.His team was wound up at the end of '85 and Frank went on to race a 635 for Cibiemme and a 325 for Autobudde in '86 before the M3 became his weapon of choice.
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5 Jul 2007, 16:49 (Ref:1964895)
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#37 | ||
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9 Jul 2007, 03:49 (Ref:1964925)
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#38 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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I have a partial list in front of me ( no scanner I'm afraid), and RA1-22 is assigned to BMW France. Another car which we might be able to fill in the history on is RA1-02. The car was delivered to BMW Australia (JPS), and I believe was converted from Gp A to CpC ( with twin cam M88 engine) and driven by Richards in 1983/4, teaming up with Gardner for Bathurst in 84 (dnf/sabotage???). At the end of 84, car was converted back to GpA, and used by Creighton for the first round of the 85 ATCC. Was sold to Jim Keogh ( 85 Bathurst/6th w/Garry Rogers, 86 Sandown 25th w/ Des Wall). I think this is the car now owned by Jim Boult in NZ, maybe Gerard could contact him to confirm this.
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9 Jul 2007, 22:58 (Ref:1964927)
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#39 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: May 2000
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Hi Guys, this is the list that I have. It only goes to #49 but I am endeavouring to obtain the rest of the numbers through my contacts at BMW Motorsport. Hope this clarifies some of the questions.
Adrian, I'll contact Jim Boult, but I think you are right as far as chassis #2 goes.Rgs, Gerry Racing Chassis Numbers & Clients Big Production years were 1983 (RA1 prefix in all but two cases) & 1984 (RA2 prefix). ETCC – European Touring Car Championship BTCC – British Touring Car Championship DTM – Deutsche Tourenwagen Meisterschaft BMW Motorsport racing bodies & hardware 1983-88 Chassis #; Client; Country; Programme/drivers E24 AAA-01*;Works Proto/Cheylesmore BMW;D/UK;BTCC/Hans Stuck E24 RA2-01;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Kelleners/Grano E24 RA1-02**;BMW Australia,F. Gardner;Aus;National Title/Richards E24 RA1-03;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-04;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-05;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-06;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-07;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC/Stuck-Queste E24 RA1-08;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Briozzo E24 RA1-09;Eggenberger;CH;ETCC/Stalder * AAA-01 was crashed heavily but was reborn in a new body ** RA1 was re-used as a test & special development car & had a later life in the hands of CC Racing for BMW GB in National Series E24 RA1-10;Juma/Belgian National;B;ETCC/Heyer-Hahne E24 RA1-11 ;Juma/Belgian National ;B;ETCC/Xhenceval- Bourgoigne E24 RA1-12;Konig;D;DTM E24 RA1-13;Leopold von Bayern;D;DTM/Stuck-Brun E24 RA1-14;V.B. Racing;CS ;TECC/Strycek E24 RA1-15;Delcour;B;ETCC/Spa 24 hr E24 RA1-16;BMW AG;D;Show Car/retained E24 RA1-17;Gartlan/Grace;UK;National/Sytner E24 RA1-18;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-19 ;BMW France;F ;National E24 RA1-20 ;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-21;Hartge Tuning (D);D;ETCC/DTM E24 RA1-22;BMW France;F;National E24 RA1-23;Hartge Tuning (D);B/F;ETCC/DTM/Nationals E24 RA1-24 E24 RA1-25;Faltz of Essen;D;DTM E24 RA2-26;BMW Belgium;B;Unknown E24 RA2-27;ETCC E24 RA2-28;ASP Racing;CH;Concept Car Project E24 RA2-29;Cheylesmore BMW;GB;BTCC E24 RA2-30;Circuiti/Opptyhaus E24 RA2-31;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC/DTM E24 RA2-32 E24 RA2-33;Polak Racing;US E24 RA2-34;;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC Original Teile livery E24 RA2-35;Factory/Schnitzer;D;ETCC Original Teile livery E24 RA2-36;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC E24 RA2-37;BMW GB/CC Racing;GB;BTCC/Weaver E24 RA2-38;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC E24 RA2-39;BMW GB/CC Racing;GB;BTCC/Woodman E24 RA2-40 ;Eggenberger Racing;CH;ETCC E24 RA2-41;Eggenberger Racing ;CH;ETCC E24 RA2-42;Hartge Tuning;D;ETCC E24 RA2-43;Hartge Tuning;D;ETCC E24 RA2-44;BMW Australia/ Gardner;Aus;National Title Winner/ Richards E24 RA2-45;Obermaier;D;DTM E24 RA2-46;Gartlan Racing/Grace;GB;Grp N, not A. Crashed by B. Williams, rebuilt & sold to NZ (G. Hodges) E24 RA2-47;Juma Racing;B;ETCC E24 RA2-48;Juma Racing;B;ETCC E24 RA2-49 ;D;DTM |
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10 Jul 2007, 11:47 (Ref:1964929)
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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I am really pleased to see this list and will spend some time correlating to entries in my notes.Regarding the French entries which seem to have caused a little surprise and contention,here are my initial thoughts.I actually think the whole list is an early version of where these cars went to perhaps based on initial orders and that later,chassis were resold as team plans changed or teams saw the chance to make a quick profit by selling them on.France had its saloon championship based around Superproduction which was a more free interpretation of Group A and allowed bigger wheels,slightly more developed aerodynamics and engine and brake modifications which gave up to 100 more horsepower and even the fitting of M1 brakes.The 635 was allowed into the championship for the first time in '83 and 4 cars raced which could neatly correspond to RA's03/4/5/6? Team 1)Garage du Bac,Motul backed for Jean'Pierre Malcher;2)Two car team JMS, for owner Jean Marc Smadja(Iso Roulements as sponsor)and Claude Ballot=Lena(Marlboro backed);3)Team Bodard for Anny-Charlotte Verney(GSI Computers backed). I am only suggesting these were the first four RA numbers allocated to BMW France but they were racing in March of '83 so it makes sense. In '84,5 cars raced so a newcomer is now on the scene! 1)Garage du Bac ran their car in only 1 race for Fabien Giroix,likely to be last years car.They did now also have an Eggenberger built Gp A car which was their main priority;2)JMS ran a single car for Ballot-Lena as Smadja raced a Peugeot;3)Mirabeau Concessionaires raced a car prepared by Bodard Tuning for Gerard Bleynie(presumably the ex-Verney car?);4)SJA Course ran two cars for Jean-Pierre Castel (the new car?) and Roland Guillemet (possibly in the Smadja '83?)
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10 Jul 2007, 12:25 (Ref:1964932)
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#41 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
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For '85 the 635 was starting to lose a little of its competitive edge in France although more cars raced some were raced by less talented drivers and ran in a lower class within the Superproduction races known as the Criterium. Teams were 1)Pelras for Xavier Lapeyre;2)Bodard for Gerard Bleynie;3)Bodard for Phillipe Gurdjian;4)Mirabeau for Claude Ballot-Lena;5)JMS for Jean Marc Smadja;6)SJA for Jean-Pierre Castel;7)Roland Guillemet;8)Elkron sponsored car for Gilles Sagne/Noel Dupas;By '86 the cars were even lower down the field and usually did not warrant a mention in magazines of the day so they became even more difficult to follow.At the same time that the 635 was starting in Superproduction,Dominque Fornage was racing a Gp A car in ETCC as was Jean Louis Bos.The Fornage car was entered and (prepared?)by Hartge at some races and by Garage du Laon(a French BMW dealer) at others.Fornage became I think a founder member of the Bavaria Automobiles team for '84 and onwards until'87. It is relatively easy therefore to see how BMW France would need so many cars. BMW in France had always been active in racing using the 320/323/520/528/530 and the 635 continued the tradition.I am still at a loss as to where the Sytner/Bmw France link has come from!! I know the picture you are thinking of,wasn't it on a French or Belgian forum with a thread about Superproduction racing? Ian.
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16 Jul 2007, 17:05 (Ref:1964580)
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#42 | ||
 Race OfficialVeteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,958
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BMW 635 CSi (Group A)
The relevant bits out of the orginal thread have been kept and I will add the chassis stuff from the main discussion thread as well.
Work in progress!! |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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24 Jul 2007, 11:00 (Ref:1971995)
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#43 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 135
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635 Ra2-51
Dear 635 fans,
It's a real pleasure for me to contribute to this impressive records compilation about 635s Motorsport-chassis and race results. Here is the history about my car as I was able to retrace it rom my file and the conversations I had with Serge Power, Fornage, De Deyne, etc … E24-RA2-51 was ordered on 23-1-84 & delivered on 31-1-84, white bare shell. It was sold to a customer who was located in Germany, but he had done nothing with the shell when Serge Power bought it via Schnitzer on behalf of his customer Michel de Deyne in March 1984. Michel de Deyne was a famous driver at this time as he won 5 Belgian touring car championships and most of them with BMWs. Once completed the car did one round of the Belgian championship and was entered at SPA in “Somati” colors, car number 18 driven by Michel de Deyne/Claude Bourgoignie/Kurt Thiim, 14th OA Shortly after SPA the car was sold to “Bavaria Automobiles” a team headed by Dominique Fornage who always raced 3 to 5 635s between 1983 -1986. Included in the car’s price was an agreement for De Deyne to drive the car in ETCC in 1985. The car raced most of the ETCC 85 championship in “Monroe shocks” colours ( nicest deco the car ever had ) driven by Ballot-Léna, De Deyne, Andruet, Metge, Belmondo, Haisnaut … and a lot of well known other drivers. SPA was raced again upon “Somati” colours ( De Deyne’s main sponsor ) by Deyne / Bourgoignie / Haezebrouck with number 10 but DNF due to transmission. In 1986 it was raced most of the time again by Ballot-Léna with various sponsors. SPA was raced upon “Toshiba” colours with number 39 ( which it had all along the season ) finishing again 14th after the race was ruined during the night when Rahier sanded the car. In 1987 it was sold to Robert Dupraz who previously rented the car with Bassot for the ETCC race at held Nogaro in 1986. Robert raced the car as a Group A in 1987 but converted it to race as a “Supertourisme” in 1989. After a long storage he sold the car in 1998 to Emile Ciglar who reverted it to Group A specifications. In 2002 it was sold to Olivier Nicolle who spent a lot to rebuild it mechanically and raced the car still as a legal Group A at tracks and Hill Climbs were the car proved to be still a quick one ! I bought it in 2004 and decided in 2005 a nut and bolt concours restoration, the car is still unfinished due to lack of time and too many racing projects. Thought not really for sale some picture can be seen on my web site www.florentmoulin.com in the “Car for Sale” section. I already have tons of pictures from the car in race but any new ones are welcome. I hope this helps, Passionately Florent MOULIN contact@florentmoulin.com |
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25 Aug 2007, 08:17 (Ref:1996193)
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 135
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Quote:
Dominique Dornage was the owner of Bavaria Automobiles, BMW Dealer at Reims. He also owned another BMW dealership at Laon this wh some cars show stickers "BMW LAON" but it's the same team. He entered 635s from 1983 to 1987 in ETCC competing each year at SPA 24 h. My car ( E24 RA2-51 ) belonged to this Team from 1985 to 1986. Gerard Bleynie is the owner of Mirabeau Competition and as far as I know he never drove a car prepared by Bodard. The "Star" BMW car from the French Superproduction championship in 1984-1986 was the M5 prepared by Oreca with Pipo engine, producing 440 HP but the AUDi Quattro prepared by ROC were by far to fast. I hope this helps Florent |
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9 Apr 2010, 02:11 (Ref:2669213)
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,549
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RA2/55 at Bathurst (Ravaglia/Cecotto)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl6HMjzaewc |
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more torque than a climate change conference
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3 Sep 2012, 11:18 (Ref:3129781)
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#46 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,549
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RA2/55 departed the Bob Jane stable, now with the Bowdens, still in Australia, great work guys.
http://www.bowdensown.com.au/welcome...nitzer-635_BMW |
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more torque than a climate change conference
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26 Oct 2014, 21:47 (Ref:3468845)
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Racer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 445
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Quote:
Chassis RA2#39 (CC030..) was crashed by Woodman 25-3-84 at Donington. He missed the next two races but then appeared again at Thruxton driving an RA1 car with alloy uniball cage. As any new car in `84 would be an RA2 we have to assume this was a previously used car. RA2-59 was not repaired as by chance I visited a BMW Recycling place in Sussex and the bodyshell was there piled up with old street cars waiting for the crusher. Woodmans `new` car seems to have the roll cage changed later in `84 too. The Grace / Gartlan cars were RA1 # 17 and RA2 # 46. The latter being delivered as a complete car with RHD. So it must have been intended for the BTCC even if not used. It was delivered on January 31st 1985. One question. I have seen pictures of a yellow Eggenberger 635 I think in NZ. They look recent. Anyone know about it ? Alex |
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26 Oct 2014, 23:26 (Ref:3468887)
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 117
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Quote:
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg In post #37 of this thread 'Brown Dog' confirmed the car looked the same in 2012. http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...=131363&page=3 Back in Oct 1987 it didn't look much different at Wellington: http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...-10_BMW-22.jpg |
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27 Oct 2014, 21:02 (Ref:3469179)
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#49 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 445
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..................... I did mean the crashed car was RA3-39, not 59.
Thanks for the links Malcolm, yes that is the car I meant. Looks very nice...Alex |
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22 Dec 2014, 06:09 (Ref:3487069)
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