Argo

[Bryan Miller]

As advised elsewhere I was at Eastern Creek Historics on the weekend and the subject came up of Argo's , and I was informed of an Argo about 100km from me , I can only think that it is the 2nd of the two that came into Western Australia about 20/25 years ago, so will track it down.
Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

On reflection I think it's more likely that the Goode/Frost/Ritchie car started life
with Tyrrell Arnold in N.Ireland in 1981

Chris

[Dan Rear]

Chris, yeah I reckon only 2 JM9s, the Goodwin/Lees UK car, and the Irish Tyrrell Arnold one. I suspect the latter is the Laurie Ritchie car that Steve mentions above.

[Chris Townsend]

Found a third JM9 Atlantic.
Delivered new in 1981 to Jim Blackwell in Seattle, retained until early 1985
at least. Then to Marty Knoll and Terry Edwards [both NW USA] and then
to Canadian Gary Milligan who used it as the basis of his national autocross
champ winning "Lotus Europa" in 1994.
There was also at least one JM11 Atlantic sold new in Seattle in 1982.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Chris

Have you spoken to the Bob Relinski who is listed as owning chassis JM11-061-SV in the FSV register? His email is given as karwashbob at aol dot com.

Allen

[Dan Rear]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Chris

Have you spoken to the Bob Relinski who is listed as owning chassis JM11-061-SV in the FSV register? His email is given as karwashbob at aol dot com.

Allen

Allen wasn't the JM12 the FSV, not the JM11 ? I'd thought that for that year, 1982, the F3 was the 10, the FAt the 11, and the FSV the 12. Except that Bill Burley (?) used a JM12 FSV in the 'year-old cars' F3 class a year or so later in Britain IIRC.

[allenbrown]

Absolutely no idea Dan!! Not sure Argo always did.

[jleonard]

I'm sorry I haven't had a chance to go look at the ex Nugent car to confirm it's a JM-8.I thought there was only 2 JM-9 FA built, we had sn 056 (which we bought used, not new) and Wille Stobart in Perth Australia had the other. Could sn 057 that is hillclimbing be the Stobert car gone back to the UK? We did own the 11 (065) that came to Seattle. There is another 11 style car in the area which started life as a super V and left the factory as an FA. It's been a while but I think it is stamped with SV/FA. I do own JM5-036-FA and it is the Rackham car. He did race the car at a boxing day event and had an accident which was rapaired at Anglia cars.

[allenbrown]

Hi jleonard

Thanks for this - very useful indeed. I had completely failed to spot the information you posted on the 1-off F2 cars thread so I've just grabbed this so it's accessible on this thread. Maybe John can transfer the posts across later and remove the quotes?

Allen

Originally Posted by jleonard

From here: I see this thread is over a year old but I thought I would add a few notes on Argo atlantic cars. The Rick Gorne car was a converted F3 called a JM1X. The Mike Nugent car was a 1980 JM8 and is in the Seattle, WA. U.S.A. area.It is rumored to have been in a shop fire with partial damage.We imported JM9-056-FA to the U.S. in about 1982. The car was sold and went to B.C. Canada was raced then the suspension was used for an autox special and the gearbox,adapter and tubs (yes 2, one was a used F3) went to Tennesee U.S.A. I was told there was also a JM9 in Australia. We also owned JM11-065-FA which was rebuilt as a sports racer using JM21 bodywork after an extensive accident.The last I heard that car is in Florida.The gem though is our JM5-036-FA which we purchased from Dave Rackham in 1980. I won the first SCCA national it was entered in which we think was the first for an ARGO atlantic.In recent years we have run the car in some vintage events and also against current Swifts and Ralts in SCCA nationals when the Reynard hasn't been ready.Like the comment about the RT1 the 5 is a great car to drive.I think there is also in the Seattle area another JM11 built as a super V converted to atlantic before it left the factory,a JM4 type SV and a ff2000. I just got to thinking that the JM5 could be the only operational true ARGO atlantic car in North America, maybe the world?

Originally Posted by jleonard

From here: Dan,Jon Peterson arranged the sale of the 9 to us and the money was paid to Anglia Cars.I'm 90% sure it's the Arnold car. We got quite a few spares with the car as they were disassembling the F3 cars after they turned out to not to be very good. The 9 did look much different, Pininfarina's wind tunnel might have made the aero OK but the cars were very flexible. When we bought the JM5 it was the intention of my brother and I to inspect both the 5 and the Nugent JM8. When we left the US both cars were for sale, when we landed in the UK 12 hours later Nugent had taken a deposit on his car from an agent in the US. We also bought an Alan Smith engine from Andy Barton (iron man of the north?) on that trip.I still have the autosport ad listing the Nugent car as an 8,also I should have race results from here in the US with the car listed as an 8.The 5 and 8 Have different tubs the 8 being longer extending into the engine bay along with some other minor changes.The nose and upper bodywork are the same,the sidepods are different as well as most of the rear suspension.The 11 we had was built as an atlantic same bodywork as the F3 but with all the right brakes ,wheels and wings. It did use the front upright from the 1981 F3/atlantic. Back in about 1985 the 5,9and 11 all attended the same pro atlantic race (half the worlds population of ARGO atlantics?) Thanks for the intrest,Jo would be pleased. Is there an area for atlantics I don't want the F2 guys to be upset with us? J

[allenbrown]

Tom Johnston in Canada has emailed me to say that:

The JM6 referred to as being driven by Ross Bentley is actually a Johnston JM6, one of my cars. The similar mark designation often resulted in confusion at the time.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

I'll say, I only found one contemporary reference to it as a Johnston rather than as an Argo!
Though from seeing a photo on CMSHG a few years back I recall it did have an uncanny resemblance to Argo's FF2000 car that appeared at the same time.
Chris

[allenbrown]

I've asked Tom for some background on the car. He's also said he'll look into our other Argo queries.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

From what jleonard is saying here it looks as though JM9-056-FA was the Blackwell car in Atlantic before being AX'd and had previous in 1981 -
presumably as the Arnold car which disappears after 81. That would make our UK/Irish based JM9 the ex Goodwin Racing chassis. I can't find any evidence of an Argo in Australian Pacific class in 81/83.
The Seattle location makes the Nugent JM8 a fine prospect for the car of Jim Burnett. All we need here is the chassis no!
The outstanding question is JM11-65.
jleonard is your car the ex Karlberg-Boley Atlantic racer or was that the hybrid FA/SV that's still up there in Seattle?
Also, would love some results and background on SCCA Nationals in the 1980s as I start doing pro races in that period
Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

Western Australia is a long way from the other side of OZ where most Atlantic stuff happened , Willie Stobart certainly is a name that rings bells re . one of the two Argo's that came here, which has reminded me to try and find out about the one I was told of up the coast from Sydney.

[jleonard]

The JM-11-O65 is the Karlberg/Boley car that I owned and yes I am Jim Blackwell. Jim Burnett owns the 11 FA/SV the 8, ex Nugent car and a JM17 FF2000. I called Jim and confirmed that the early car is JM8-044-FA. So the list of ARGO atlantics goes JM1X sn?,JM5-036,JM8-044,all early design. JM9-056 dismantled, parts in US and Canada. JM9-057, one of two built for Irish series now speed event car, back from OZ? 9s were the Arrows F1 lookalikes. JM11-065 ex Karlburg/Boley,Blackwell,now in Florida with JM-21 sportsracer bodywork.And the Burnett JM11 S.N. unknown, car in storage. The 11s looked like Ralt rt4s. Wille Stobert also had a March 832. Please do not call Jim about his cars as they are not for sale.

[Chris Townsend]

Jim

A proper welcome to CF3 and thanks for all the information. Apart from the Willy Stobart mystery you've cleared up every query on the Argo Atlantic cars. [I have a pencil written note of the Gorne chassis number, but need to clarify the handwriting with the original note taker.]
Have a look at the 84 WCAR results on www.oldracingcars.com and tell us if we're gettting it right.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Have a look at the 84 WCAR results on www.oldracingcars.com and tell us if we're gettting it right.

Somewhat confusingly listed under Canada: try here.

[Dan Rear]

I'm getting lost here chaps. Are we saying there were/are only 2 JM9s made, thats why I think FWIW - the Lees/Goodwin car, and the Arnold one. One is still in UK with Ritchie, the other with Jim B in US/Canada.

I still maintain the Nugent car was a 1979-80 model, a JM5, and NOT an 81 JM8/9. The 2 models, ie the 79/80 and 81 cars were distinctly different. I think the sequence is as follows :

JM1X 1979 convert of a 78 F3 car
JM5 1979-80 'new' car, similar to the classic JM6 F3, 2 made for Nugent and Rackham
JM9 1981 car, the equivalent to the awful JM8 F3 car - 2 made, Lees and Arnold.
JM11 1982, one only and slightly RT3-4 looking.

How do we think about the above ??

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

... JM11 1982, one only ...

Definitely more than 1 as we have Bob Relinski's JM11-061-SV, Jim Blackwell's 'JM-11-O65' and Jim Burnett's '11 FA/SV'. With the known JM9s being chassis 056 and 057, there are gaps in the numbering that may hide more JM11s.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Allen and Dan

I too wondered about the calling out of JM8-044 as Nugent's car as he has his Argo in 1979 and the JM8 was the 1981 F3 car. 1979 should make it a JM5. It's retained 1980 but then disappears 81. However, my records of Irish Atlantic in 1981 are decidedly thin, it's quite possible that Nugent got a JM8 for that year. Given the competitiveness of the JM8 it's entirely plausible that he would not figure in any results!

Remaining problems:
Nick May has a JM5 October 79 at Brands Atlantic race, perhaps on loan from works. This might be the Rackham JM5 which then goes to Jim Blackwell.

Nick Adams has a "JM6 " October 80 at Brands Atlantic, also perhaps a one off works loan with a view to the following year. I can't see where this one goes. Chassis number 044-F3 works as well for a 1980 chassis as an early 1981 JM8... [Both 041 and 042 were early 1980 F3 cars for the works and Colin Thorpe]

JM9s - only two
056 Arnold, then to Jim Blackwell, Marty Knoll, Terry Edwards, and A/X
057 Goodwin Racing, then unknown to Neil White [h/c 1995]

Agree that we have at least three JM11s.

Any offers on JM12 Super Vee?

Chris

[jleonard]

Yes there is more than one 11, two FA, SV unknown. I only knew of two JM9 atlantics. At this point I have no doubt that Nugents ad in autosport in the winter of 1980/81 listing his car as an 8 is correct. Confirming this model number with a phone call to Jim Burnett. I waited on the phone while Jim went out to his shop uncovered the car and checked. I know 044 raced in Portland Oregon USA on June 12, 1981, it's first race in the US I know of. Nugent raced his car after he sold it to Jim, to finish one season or start the next I'm not sure. it was in Autosport that he had an accident with it before it got shipped to the US. Rackham's notes are a little rough but I think he tested the 5(036) at Brands on sept.15 1979 and could he have made it to a libre race at Donnington the next day the 16th? 45s at Brands and 72,73s at Donnington.There seams to be two races at Brands after Sept. one of 53 laps and one of 50 laps and a note about a lower third gear for the Brands atlantic round,could this be the Nick May race? Rackham also told us he held the Lyddon outright lap record. I can think of no reason why JM8-044 is an 8 other than the guy stamping the plates had to good of a time at the Hare+Barrel in Griston and screwed up. We could always have the plate checked to see if there is a 3 under the 8 But that would have been done at the factory. The actual build date is the most important for us, our local vintage rules state December 31 1979 is the cut off. If we could locate Nick Jordon on John Peterson they might have a good story about it. If you see Ross Bently in results driving an ARGO it should be a Johnston.

[allenbrown]

As a matter of interest, what are all the other missing numbers between 036 and 065? F3s? FFs? Sports cars?

[Dan Rear]

Allen I suspect mainly F3s/FSVs.

As Chris says 041/42 were JM6 F3s, there was at least 1 JM7 FSV I think, the '80 FSV car.

Given the success of the JM6, and that Ron T couldn't build RT3s quick enough, they made around 9 or 10 JM8s I reckon for 81, so that might take it to -55 or so. Where the next 8 or 9 cars are, up to -065, I'm not sure. The JM14s didn't come til 1983, which is after, so perhaps there were a few 1982 F3s after all, the JM10.

I agree with Chris again on the Nugent car, which first appears in '79, so it MUST be a JM5, and not an 8. The Adams car was, I'd always thought the Rackham one, a one-off drive after he'd given up on the March 80A that year. The Nick May drive was also the Rackham car I'm sure.

[allenbrown]

It's possible the Nugent car was upgraded at the factory with new bits (even a new tub) and was given a new plate JM8-044 to replace its JM5-044 plate. That sort of dodge might have saved Nugent some car tax or import duties. A little bird told me yesterday that it was common practice at Chevron to upgrade an old sports car with a new tub making it into the latest model and dump the old tub out the back. Maybe Argo did something similar sometimes.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

I'm not sure about the upgrading of 044-F3 because that chassis number
doesn't explain it as the car Nugent ran in 1979.
If we know 41 and 42 to have been 1980 F3s then the 1979 car has to be
a lower number than that. I think Nugent might have had two cars replacing
a 79 JM3 with a JM6/8 hybrid in 1981 at some point.

Regardiing number sequence: 037 is a works JM6 F3 used as a spare by Tassin and raced by him at Mallory Park in Sept 1980. 033 is a 1979 SV used by Werner Erhard in USA. It looks to me as though 036 is the last 1979 car built.

Regarding Rackham's notebook: September 15 was a Saturday, and Brands did allow a limited amount of testing on Saturdays if there was a school going on at the same time. [I still remember spinning on John Oxborrow's oil on the exit of Paddock on one of these occasions...] Will check if there was a libre at Donington Sept 16 or maybe Dan will know.

The last Atlantic round was at Brands, October 14 and ran for 52 laps.
This was the race where May appeared [7th]. Was a late entry as he's not in the programme. Rackham appeared with his Chevron B42-08, finished 6th.
Will have to have a good look at libre races in A/S.

Chris