Team orders? (merged)

[Gt_R]

I'm sorry for spoiling this bash-party, but honestly, this sucks.

The first posts is worth replying to...just.. the rest?

Firstly, let's not go into history about how Jordan decide their win in Spa...nobody made a fuss.

To people who's life is devoted to MS/Ferrari bashing, ask ANY teams out there who would willingly sacrifice a 1-2 for "fun".

But of course, what's a Ferrari victory without the bashing that comes along....

[tangoed sparky]

Rubens looked prety (EDIT: annoyed/disheartened?) at the end of the race before the podium where he had to put on a brave face for the team.

EDIT: Adam

[Knowlesy]

The thing I object to most really, is that RB is made to look quite stupid in all of this. He drives on Michaels gearbox for an eternity knowing full well he can pass at any time but that he's not allowed and then sits in the press conference smiling saying how much he enjoyed staring at Michaels diffusor for half the race and how life at Ferrari is a bunch of roses.

If I were him, I'd be terrified to show my face in public.

[Knowlesy]

For the record Gt_R, Jordans deciding of the race at Spa 1998 wasn't admirable, but the conditions were a lot worse and the risk much much higher and the team was on the verge of a first win.

Not leading the championship with double the points of their competitors with an infinitely faster car in conditions conducive to risk free racing.

[Gt_R]

Yeah..both drivers seem cool to each other, and i do have a feeling that there's an order coming down to drivers to hold their position after the near collision between the two guys.

But is that order to hold position too much? It's not. It's simple common sense, and i think the fact that people criticise it so much just because it's Ferrari made the whole argument so much less convincing.

Teams do it all the time. But people selectively choose when to condemn it..

RB came out with fresher tyres with a later stop, hence i was quite certain that the situation is RB is able to push MS real hard, if not pass him..instead of finishing a few seconds off the pace.

However, Ferrari gave them the chance to fight until THAT point where they almost collide..which i think i'd rather them hold station than take each other out.

And people can criticise Ferrari, but obviously they overlook the fact that despite losing RB a few positions due to unpredictable circumstances in the first pit stop, they have altered RB's strategy to give him a fighting chance and it worked quite brilliantly.

Of course, Kimi pass DC because he's faster... Kimi never had difficulty passing DC

I mean, i can sound like every one of the critics and start these silly allegations..it's not hard at all.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Gt_R

Firstly, let's not go into history about how Jordan decide their win in Spa...nobody made a fuss.

I'm thinking "straws" "clutching" and "at".

[Gt_R]

knowlesy, you and i know that not only Jordan, but many other teams won't let their drivers compromise a 1-2 in the closing stage of a race.

Ask Williams..ask Mclaren...

It would be pretty much stupid for a team to let 2 drivers collide and retire when a 1-2 is so much in the bag..just for the sake of "fun".

This is F1...there's a limit to the "fun" factor.

[Peter Mallett]

GT_R I don't usually use this term when it comes to you but.......................... @RSE!

[Knowlesy]

I'll bet if the Williams drivers were fighting it out for the championship between themselves they'd be allowed to race.

In the circumstances Ferrari are in, team orders are unacceptable.

I could understand it when they were in a struggle for the title with Williams or McLaren, but not now. There is simply no need.

[Gt_R]

How sweet

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Gt_R
How sweet

Yep. Wake up and smell the .......................................................................................... coffee!

[alfasud]

Good on Rubens for having a go while he was on fresh tires after the last pit stop.... pity he developed that "mechanical/track debries problem". Eddie Irvine used to have a lot of those sort of problems too, if I remember rightly....

Then he joined Jag and had them for real

[Gt_R]

It's not a matter of no need or in need... knowlesy.

It's just a sensible thing to do when you run a team. 1-2 A happy result that pleases your sponsors and everyone else...extending the lead in the championship.

That's the business side of F1 which no team can escape from.

If Ferrari goes right from the start of the race/season saying "We have team orders in place", then i would think it sucks big time.

But after letting your drivers do their stuffs...after having a 1-2 in an incident packed race... then almost seeing both cars wanting to lunch each other doesn'g go down well with Brawn's banana.

I'm quite aware that Ruben's is unfortunately disadvantaged in this situation. I was impressed with his qualifyings and would be more than glad to see him win. I'd be satisfied that any Ferrari wins.

And they've let themselves gone as far as it is sensible. Sure, it hurts not watching 2 cars race...but unfortunately, the fact is that as much as Rubens have a fast car, MS isn't going to make things easy. And such senario would mean it's better to back off for both.

I'd be mad if MS takes RB out, or vice versa.

Put it this way, if RB had come out ahead of MS in the race, and MS tried what RB did to him, i'm pretty confident that RB would be allowed to keep the win and MS told to hold station

[Knowlesy]

Well that remains to be seen....

[Andrew2001]

GT_r, Kimi was much faster than DC in the race, much as Sato also dispatched DC with ease. He had no speed. Kimi was on his exhaust pipe on the pitstraight, and it was a very straight forward slipstreaming move.

[Gt_R]

To just sumarise my point.

1) I'm not denying the existence of team orders in this race.

2) I believe the orders came after the two cars almost hit.

3) Prior to that both drivers were given free hand to race (sensibly)...but the "close shave" prove they are not quite as sensible.

4) I feel disappointed for Rubens, and i'm sure he feels disappointed soon.

5) This feeling is consistent in that as much as i defend Ferrari's Canada choice of not implementing team orders of letting RB pass, i would actually have no problem (even preferred ) if Ferrari orders RB through.

6) However, it is important to take into consideration the whole picture (rather than "fun" and what we want), that what Ferrari (i assume) had done, is the sensible thing to do. And for that i have to concede it's acceptable.

7) I always wanted Ferrari vs the rest, internal unrest isn't my interest.

[freud]

Originally posted by knowlesy
Rubens did seem disheartened didn't he freud?

Must be regretting signing that new contract i'd say.

He must be disheartened, yet he smiled. If he continues to drive so superbly, I would be in the Rubens bandwagon soon. Imho he's been the driver of the season, so far, considering all he BS he's been through.... thumbs up to Rubens Barrichello & way to go, man !

[Adam43]

Off topic I guess: Driver of the season? A couple of half decent races. Still the driver of the race thread will be along soon so you can decide!

[Knowlesy]

He's far from driver of the season, he's only just started to come good!

[Andrew2001]

GTR! IT DOESNT MATTER! One of those Ferraris will win the championship so why the christ does Jean toad still run this teh way he does. For the 10035835365366383838th time, doing these drastic things to the regulations over the last few years has NOT been the problem, and will NOT Solve anything. They need stability in the regs for 4-5 years, not this constant change here and there. In 1998, when things were changed, they sthould have stayed that way for a good few seasons.

Senna and Prost had the best car in 1988, and so we watched a very exciting season where both cars went at it for the entire year ,we didnt know who was going to win, it was fantastic classic F1. This is why I HATE Ferrari and HATE TODT. This manipulation of the fans and of F1 itself is costing F1 dearly. We could see great racing, many races Rubens has been as fast, if not faster than MS but has had to "Hold station". Now, more than ever, its OBVIOUS to all what is going on in F1.
What would make all this go away, is if Todt grew a british brain, and took the dog leash and chocker chain off Rubens, threw it into the bin, and let these two race, for ENTIRE Year. One Ferrari is going to win out of the two, we all know Schumacher is going to be the one beause he gets treatment that no other driver gets.
Schumacher can count for as long as he wants and build as many numbers as he wants, but he will never be the racer that Senna and at least 5 other drivers were. Because he has never raced without the aid of his team mate.

[Gt_R]

Happy Hating.

[freud]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
GTR! IT DOESNT MATTER! One of those Ferraris will win the championship so why the christ does Jean toad still run this teh way he does. For the 10035835365366383838th time, doing these drastic things to the regulations over the last few years has NOT been the problem, and will NOT Solve anything. They need stability in the regs for 4-5 years, not this constant change here and there. In 1998, when things were changed, they sthould have stayed that way for a good few seasons.

Senna and Prost had the best car in 1988, and so we watched a very exciting season where both cars went at it for the entire year ,we didnt know who was going to win, it was fantastic classic F1. This is why I HATE Ferrari and HATE TODT. This manipulation of the fans and of F1 itself is costing F1 dearly. We could see great racing, many races Rubens has been as fast, if not faster than MS but has had to "Hold station". Now, more than ever, its OBVIOUS to all what is going on in F1.
What would make all this go away, is if Todt grew a british brain, and took the dog leash and chocker chain off Rubens, threw it into the bin, and let these two race, for ENTIRE Year. One Ferrari is going to win out of the two, we all know Schumacher is going to be the one beause he gets treatment that no other driver gets.
Schumacher can count for as long as he wants and build as many numbers as he wants, but he will never be the racer that Senna and at least 5 other drivers were. Because he has never raced without the aid of his team mate.

Dont forget Brawn!

I agree. Its a big shame really.. these guys know they have the season in their pockets yet the BS continues. Its sinister really... Anyway, to be honest, I have become used to this fiasco. It was worse a few years ago. At least Rubens doesnt brake early and lets MS go like he used to.

[tangoed sparky]

Hear hear I totaly agree with you ANDREW2001. Shumacher has not had a proper race for years he relys on brawn to do his thinking and his team mate to cover his ass. It is a shame that somebody cannot take the race to him like they nearly did last year.

[Yoong Montoya]

I think all of this MS hatred comes from the racist anti-German media blitz that the British media used to publish - British media is widely available in Europe.

If MS were not German, people wouldn't hate him so much.

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Andrew2001
Schumacher can count for as long as he wants and build as many numbers as he wants, but he will never be the racer that Senna and at least 5 other drivers were. Because he has never raced without the aid of his team mate.

Come on Andrew, admit it - you just wanted to see Rubens take out Michael


Forget F1 and watch MotoGP.