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20 May 2009, 20:26 (Ref:2465947) | #26 | ||
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20 May 2009, 22:39 (Ref:2466058) | #27 | |||
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One thought, if this budget cap does happen in F1, that will leave Renault, Mercedes, Fiat, Toyota, BMW etc. all with a lot of money they were spending on F1 left over. At least a few million, if not in the ten's. If the FIA could time some cheeper rules into the WTCC nicely, surely those manufacturers could spare a couple on million on a TCC program. They could also have done it with S2000 if it wasn't for what i've just dubbed paugate. Of course, all of this is assuming competence at the FIA. Ha, not likely. |
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21 May 2009, 07:29 (Ref:2466188) | #28 | |
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Haven't we had this same discussion in another thread?
Interesting to see that some people are advocating an equivelancy formula yet at the same time complaining about the number of waivers in S2000. Surely any equivelancy formula just means more of the same and more arguments over what is really equal. |
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21 May 2009, 07:44 (Ref:2466201) | #29 | ||
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Spot on Nigel.
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21 May 2009, 07:54 (Ref:2466209) | #30 | |||
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21 May 2009, 11:09 (Ref:2466333) | #31 | |||
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You are right, they'd spend money on next year's car, but they could finally sell a, say, '09 spec car at the beginning of the season. Imagine SEAT being able to sell new packages for the LĂ©ons each year. In this system, there would be no need to catch up, as the cars would be more or less equalized and then the ballast system would provide the normal ups and downs of the cars throughout the season, so that we'd have an exciting championship. TBH, I don't like the fact that the works 320sis are restyled while the independent ones still have the old bodywork. I'm not sure wether this would work, since SEAT already have Oreca running 2 cars and SEAT Sport running 3. Also, CHevy would have to split teams then, and so would Lada. Finally, such a limitation would affect the independent teams. A pleasure to discuss with you anyway, you're very polite |
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
21 May 2009, 11:12 (Ref:2466335) | #32 | |||
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
21 May 2009, 11:31 (Ref:2466346) | #33 | ||||
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As for the re-styled BMW's, at least it's a bit of variation. It takes it up to 5 different cars on the grid!!! (the petrol SEAT and facelifted BMW count as half) Still not a patch on national series. Quote:
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21 May 2009, 12:27 (Ref:2466385) | #34 | |||
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It also allows little opportunity for development during the year. Take the BTCC Arena Focus, they've improved nearly 2 seconds a lap since the first meeting, any equalisation based on their pre-season pace would now be hopelessly over-compensating. |
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21 May 2009, 13:07 (Ref:2466424) | #35 | ||
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Perhaps a revived version of the BTC-T Regs could save us? Standardised parts, heavier cars, more power (around 300hp), both four door and three door allowed. I'd imagine they are cheaper, and there is already a few of them about. All that would be needed changed would be the aero, i.e, getting rid of the boxy kits and making use of an S2000 style adjustable spoiler.
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21 May 2009, 14:46 (Ref:2466477) | #36 | |||
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Maybe I didn't explain myself properly about the BMW restyling: of course it's a good thing, but it's a bit annoying that the indies don't have, at least in theory, the same material as the works drivers. Well, SEAT have always been the masters of team orders. You also have to remember that they have Yvan, Tarquini and Rydell who are tremendous drivers, while Genè and Monteiro aren't at the same level. Even without team orders, the super-boosted SEATs would have dominated with the same 3 drivers, though Rickard is not at his best at the moment. Team orders in quali are good, in race they make the show a little boring. But anyway, remember Genè overtook Yvan in Marrakech, put pressure on him and so on. Same with Priaulx and Jorg in Pau (what a stupid accident). Sometimes, when you're a racing driver, you just look for your own points unless some Jaime Puig comes on the radio and says 'hold positions'. |
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21 May 2009, 14:53 (Ref:2466481) | #37 | |||
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As for the developement during the year, a manufacturer wouldn't show up with such an underperforming car on the track. If this were a works project, Ford would have waited until they had a decent engine before putting the car on the track. I believe Ford wouldn't have wanted to go out with a slow car, if this were a project designed to raise brand awareness. Arena surely had engagements with the sponsors, so they went out anyway, but a manufacturer would hardly have allowed it to happen. Problems arise, TBH, if someone wants to bring a new model in mid-season, but I'm sure brillant minds would come up with a solution for that, too. Does anybody know how do they handle such a situation in GTs? |
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
21 May 2009, 16:59 (Ref:2466554) | #38 | ||||
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Have you never seen or heard of a team sandbagging at a pre-season test? This years we've even had allegations of SEAT sandbagging during the race - deliberately not setting a fast time to make the compensation weights rules work in their favour. I think you misunderstood my comment about engine power. The car obviously needs to be properly set up and on full power for a race meeting but who says it will be for an independent equalisation test. With modern computer controlled engine management a WRC car can go from semi-docile road car to flame-spitting special stage monster at the flick of a switch. How difficult would it be to drop 20-30hp just before the equalization tester got behind the wheel? Quote:
"The tester used to drive for a rival team so will be bias towards them" "We fired the tester for being useless so he will be bias against us" "Our car has poor straight line speed but good handling, this track has no big straights so will make us look better than we are" "It was damp when you tested their car and dried out by the time you tested ours" etc etc Quote:
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21 May 2009, 18:00 (Ref:2466590) | #39 | |||||
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The most rational choice would be a driver who has never been in the Wtcc. If you get Antonio Garcia to do this job, for instance, it's clear that he might favour the BMW, and therefore wouldn't be suitable for it. You either pick a good, experienced driver from, say, Renault Clio Cup (Renault has no WTCC team), or you pick someone from open wheelers, but I'd rather choose a driver who has experience in TCs, of course. Of course, Spa or Oschersleben wouldn't be a proper venue for such a job. I repeat, as they found an agreement on turbo pressures, rev limiters and quali rules they can choose a track that looks fine for all manufacturers. As for developing a car according to a particular driver's driving style can happen in F1 or in MotoGp for bikes, but hardly in the WTCC, since the cars are designed to be ran by more than 2 guys and the Constructors' championship structure doesn't allow one to just think of one driver and develop the car according to him. SEAT haven't done it with Yvan, BMW haven't done it with Priaulx and Chevy haven't done it with Huffy, nor Lada would do that with van Lagen. Quote:
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
21 May 2009, 18:32 (Ref:2466618) | #40 | |||||
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Maybe we need to clarify exactly what we are trying to equalise. Are we talking about some minor tweaks to otherwise similar cars (i.e. not dis-similar to what the FIA are trying to do with WTCC currently) or attempting to match 4WD vs RWD vs FWD vs 4-door vs 2-door vs turbo etc. |
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21 May 2009, 18:36 (Ref:2466620) | #41 | ||
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The pre season equalisation works in GT3 because there are no manufacturers and because you are trying to equalize a load of RWD, V8 powered cars. They're all pretty much the same, so it works. If you've got RWD/FWD/petrol/heavy diesel/etc etc it just won't work. Different cars suit different people, just look at how Giovanardi did in a works BMW. The average Clio cup driver won't have driven anything as powerful and RWDey (new term!) as the BMW. It just won't work. Just make rules, keep the weight rules as they are. That's all that's needed.
EDIT: Didn't see your post there redshoes, before you think I'm just stealing you ideas. Yes, it took me that long to type a short post! |
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21 May 2009, 19:06 (Ref:2466642) | #42 | |||
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But a 1,500 KG Ford GT with a Ford V8 in it is completely different to a light-weight V10 Lambo! There are so many diverese cars of different power and weight its an amazing job that the FIA do. |
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21 May 2009, 19:36 (Ref:2466666) | #43 | |
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For the most part the FIA aren't involved, it's SRO who run things. I think that's in part why GT3 and BTCC work so well with a single public face running things rather than a faceless WTCC committee. GT3 and BTCC both have their share of inter-team arguments but Ratel and Gow do a much better job at keeping control of things.
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21 May 2009, 21:05 (Ref:2466739) | #44 | |||
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On a side note, there isn't that much money coming in from sponsors to the series. Apart from Liqui Moly and a bit of money for Wiechers and Proteam, There aren't really that many major sponsors. How do they attract more sponsors and even manufacturers? I think the coverage is a problem. It's not really on major TV in a lot of country's. But at the moment, there isn't really anything great to pitch to the TV channels, especially if they do their research and look at what happened in Pau. Could they approach the TV networks and try to sell them a new series, with just the new rules, and say to them 'if we get X manufacturers will you show it'. If the TV companies sign up (it can be done I think) then approach the manufacturers, tell them how if they build and run a relatively cheap race car they can get on major TV channels across the world, I'm sure they'll sign up. Or am I just being naive about the world of business? It just needs someone to revolutionise touring car racing. I think it is exciting enough to sell to the general public, or rather, get more fans in. It's possibly the most accessible of all motorsports; normal looking cars, all about the racing. I just feel that, with a little bit of effort, TCC could be really big. |
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21 May 2009, 21:58 (Ref:2466770) | #45 | |||
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I understand what you meant though |
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21 May 2009, 22:21 (Ref:2466783) | #46 | |||
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Well, I think that especially with the Vectra it's more of a question of car understanding, as Fabrizio had more mileage on the Vectra when it came out. Hang on, Russian Bears and N Technology both started from an existing project. All they did was an update of what they already had. Can't speak for Lada, but I'm well informed about the Accord and I can assure you that they took the 2008 rules, updated the car and did 2 tests in Franciacorta, which is a small track in Italy, and that's it. Quite different from building a car and taking it out on the track against estabilished manufacturers like BMW and SEAT without a serious testing schedule. I'm not talking about a WTCC only formula, I'm talking about a way to equalize the performances, which is different. The idea would be: developing a car, selling the new kit each year to increase performances and make them more similar to the works teams and that's it, I don't see why BMW should stop selling with the system I'm putting forward. We are talking about equalizing the existing cars so that the zstupid stuff that is going on at the moment doesn't need to happen |
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
21 May 2009, 22:42 (Ref:2466789) | #47 | |||
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As for the Clio Cup driver thing, it was the first thing that came into my head, but if you get someone like Naspetti, Balzan or someone like them (I only mentioned Italians cause I know them very well) then it will work out. |
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F-E-A-R: False Evidence Appearing Real (A.Priaulx) Stubborn As A Mule No Fear - No Limits - No Equal |
22 May 2009, 07:33 (Ref:2466891) | #48 | ||||
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It would be no good BTCC/STCC/Procar/etc adopting these rules unless they were prepared to run their own equalisation tests for the locally built cars, which are exactly the sort of teams who may not be fully prepared pre-season and who will improve during the year (as per the Arena Focus that you dismissed earlier). For something like a BMW which could race at WTCC and national level you are potentially looking at 4 different sets of equalisation results depending on their performance relative to the other cars in the each series. Indecently, this new formula would preclude any local or late entries at WTCC events, as we've seen with Volvo and Toyota for example, as they would not have been through the pre-season equalisation process. |
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22 May 2009, 07:54 (Ref:2466900) | #49 | |||
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Imagine if Gio was doing the equalisation that year, the BMW would be running on -100kg or something, because he just couldn't get on with it, while Priaulx and the Mullers were very fast. |
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22 May 2009, 08:53 (Ref:2466928) | #50 | |||
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Well, you meant that BMW would have had to build different cars for all the series in Europe, which wouldn't have to happen. There are already some differences between the works 320si E90s and the Btcc cars (they have a sequential gearbox and a different weight). With what I wrote I meant that once you build the car and then equalize it, since it's just a question of different weight, BMW can still sell the car to, say, Team RAC and they run it with the weight rules of BTCC. I hope it's clear now. Yes, you'd need cars with different weights. It's not the end of the world if the car is 1200kgs in the Wtcc and 1170kgs in the Btcc and Stcc. I have already said before that this would be a problem and asked how do they solve it in GT3 and GT4. Anybody have an idea? |
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