Project Brabham

[blankfile]

I've always been a big fan of David's racing and it's only suiting that I support his project now. So early bird fan for me

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

As with any investment there is an element of risk.

There are a lot of crowd funding projects though, where you pledge and if the funding is met then your money is invested and if not then you get it back.

This particular instance is not like that. In this case, you give your money and that's that. If they don't make it to their goals, they keep the money anyway. Which doesn't seem right to me, but that's the way it is.

This isn't an 'investment', in the traditional sense. The only thing you're investing in is hopefully supporting an extra car being on the grid that you can feel part of. This is a donation to a potential racing team that might not happen.

Just to make it clear, I have given a little money and hope it comes to fruition, but I'm not expectant and I don't want anybody to be under the false belief that they will get anything back from this or that it is guaranteed to happen.

[Deleted]

Yeah and it's not like "Early Access" games over at Steam or wherever where you purchase the product still-in-development. As in this crowdfunding/kickstarter-scheme there is a risk involved as the final product may never see daylight, but at least you are able to play working game in it's alpha or beta or whatever development stage... not just see some initial project plans and rendering sheets

With this you're not quaranteed of anything

[TheNewBob]

I thought the way these crowdfunding things work is they don't take your money until the end date, providing the goal has been reached?

Either way I threw £25 at it - if it happens I'll gladly follow their progress in the detail they say they'll provide. If not... well, I haven't really lost out very much. Not so sure the one person so far who pledged £10,000 will agree with that though!

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

I thought the way these crowdfunding things work is they don't take your money until the end date, providing the goal has been reached?

depends. In the case of Brabham @ Indiegogo, they've specifically set it up so they'll get the money, no matter what.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Ephaeton

depends. In the case of Brabham @ Indiegogo, they've specifically set it up so they'll get the money, no matter what.

Indeed: "This campaign will receive all funds raised even if it does not reach its goal."

Btw, it has gone up to 60k. Quite a long way to go and the rate always drops after the first days...

[Simmi]

0.7% of the way there so far.

I'm sure they'll hit the 250k mark. But will they have to immediately then ask for phase two?

[Lanky Turtle]

I think it's a worthy idea and just think of how proud everyone who contributes will feel when the car (hopefully) hits the track. A team that a lot of fans will have a vested interest in will certainly become one of the most popular teams in racing. A team for the people and with the Brabham history behind it to boot.

Less than 100 early birds left!

[truebeliever]

I would think if David Brabham was really serious about bringing the family name back into top line racing, he would pony up some of the funds himself and use who he is to bring in investors & sponsors?

This seems to me to be "charity racing". I want to go racing but I want you to pay for it. I do not believe this is the way to do it and cannot see it succeeding anymore than I can the Perrin program.

Is the 8 million pound quoted as the funds they want, for a single car WEC LMP2 program, or is it a 2 car deal?

If it's for a single car, I would have to think this is a very high top dollar deal, more than I would say most WEC LMP2 competitors are spending. Something which would further cause me personally to question the whole concept.

But none the less, good luck to him.

[Lanky Turtle]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I would think if David Brabham was really serious about bringing the family name back into top line racing, he would pony up some of the funds himself and use who he is to bring in investors & sponsors?

This seems to me to be "charity racing". I want to go racing but I want you to pay for it. I do not believe this is the way to do it and cannot see it succeeding anymore than I can the Perrin program.

Is the 8 million pound quoted as the funds they want, for a single car WEC LMP2 program, or is it a 2 car deal?

If it's for a single car, I would have to think this is a very high top dollar deal, more than I would say most WEC LMP2 competitors are spending. Something which would further cause me personally to question the whole concept.

But none the less, good luck to him.

I'd say any race team with sponsorship or funded drivers is a form of "charity racing".
I believe one of the goals of the team is to acquire outside sponsorship and if they can show the interest in the team, and how many supporters they have and the money so many people have invested, it will really raise the interest of potential sponsors.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Lanky Turtle

I think it's a worthy idea and just think of how proud everyone who contributes will feel when the car (hopefully) hits the track.

Same can be said about Perrinn.

[Flavio Galtieri]

In which way exactly is Brabham's new begging bowl "Open Source"?

If it was it would mean information was FREELY licensed and able to be accessed and changed by collaborators and non-collaborators alike? Instead his scheme has "tiered access" levels according to what you cough up into the bowl.

I object to Brabham describing his appeal for funds as "Open Source" and deliberately misinterpreting the concept for his own gain. It wouldn't get through the Advertising Standards Authority here in the UK, so let's hope he buys a few ads in print.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

In which way exactly is Brabham's new begging bowl "Open Source"?

If it was it would mean information was FREELY licensed and able to be accessed and changed by collaborators and non-collaborators alike? Instead his scheme has "tiered access" levels according to what you cough up into the bowl.

I object to Brabham describing his appeal for funds as "Open Source" and deliberately misinterpreting the concept for his own gain. It wouldn't get through the Advertising Standards Authority here in the UK, so let's hope he buys a few ads in print.

My viewpoint is that anyone, be it Brabham or Perrin, want to go racing, then let them find the investors or sponsors and then go racing. Expecting the public to fund the operation for them to me is wrong and I don't see the angle of Joe Public putting money into it will attract a sponsor, why would it?

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

My viewpoint is that anyone, be it Brabham or Perrin, want to go racing, then let them find the investors or sponsors and then go racing. Expecting the public to fund the operation for them to me is wrong and I don't see the angle of Joe Public putting money into it will attract a sponsor, why would it?

I agree, although of course people, or suckers as they say in the Financial Services Industry, are free to spend their money any way they want I suppose.

The problem I have is that the use of "Open Source" is clearly misrepresenting the project and brings with it the danger of undermining a concept that exists for the benefit of all, not just the Brabhams' bank accounts.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

In which way exactly is Brabham's new begging bowl "Open Source"?

If it was it would mean information was FREELY licensed and able to be accessed and changed by collaborators and non-collaborators alike? Instead his scheme has "tiered access" levels according to what you cough up into the bowl.

I object to Brabham describing his appeal for funds as "Open Source" and deliberately misinterpreting the concept for his own gain. It wouldn't get through the Advertising Standards Authority here in the UK, so let's hope he buys a few ads in print.

Print adverts are in Autosport this week if you feel like complaining. Alternatively, you could just not donate and move on.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by isynge

Print adverts are in Autosport this week if you feel like complaining. Alternatively, you could just not donate and move on.

So it is.

But unlike the promo Youtube video "Open Source" doesn't even get a mention.

Nice to know they have at least got some decent advice on advertising rules in the UK.

[isynge]

I'll be interested to see what the restrictions are on the material they put out in the "Brabham-Engineer" stream, which is one area where they could conform to some of the values of the Open Source Initiative.

Leaving terminology aside, I see this less as a corporate begging bowl and more of a traditional crowdfunding / kickstarter like project (perhaps a little in the line of the rather fun Mars One initiative). They're selling a variety of packages that get you 'something' and a mild feeling of having participated - if this raises them £250k (and it just might looking at the progress of it so far), and they use this, combined with value of Brabham brand, and whatever they themselves are putting into it (be it cash or blood / sweat / tears) to move to something which is likely to be more meaningfully funded then I don't think there's much of an issue.

It's a little like the old "Racing for Britain" model that funded drivers in the 1980s, or even the "Racing for Holland" model where you could buy a square on the Dome LMP and have your name/logo etc on it in an entirely unreadable way, but feel a little bit more involved because somehow you'd contributed something.

I'll be interested to see what phase 2 of funding looks like - to continue with the Mars One analogy, they've been quite creative in terms of everything from traditional contribute a bit and get a t-shirt, through to contribute something and get entries to a competition for a sub-orbital flight (which might or might not happen), or enter the contest to become a Mars colonist. Can Brabham continue in this sort of vein? I like to think so, in terms of things like factory visits, pit visits at races, appearances of their car / drivers / team at events etc.

Inherently all of this starts to point at what I've long suspected - that the old sponsorship model introduced by Lotus in the 1960s has increasingly run its course, and that motorsport in general and sportscar racing in particular does not at present have a sustainable business model. If correctly done crowd funding helps redress this then I'm not sure I'm going to grumble, and who knows, I might even put my hand in my pocket...

[bella]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

I would think if David Brabham was really serious about bringing the family name back into top line racing, he would pony up some of the funds himself and use who he is to bring in investors & sponsors?

he's not silly, he knows he's never going to get it back so why would he? and to be entirely fair, you never invest in motorsport, you donate to it. money doesn't come back, there's nowhere for it to come from!

i don't see anything wrong with appealing to fans for donations, especially for a name and a project many of a certain age and wealth as well as youngins with a sense of history would be emotionally invested in immediately. i think if it's well done and a decent amount of information is released to investors it gives those fans a very good idea about exactly how much it costs to buy, set up, run and maintain a racing car and team.

personally, i'm cynical about this in that the larger the project and the more money that appears to have been spent on it... the more money will get spent on paying advisors to make it look good/talk about how to make it go faster. i'm always inclined to trust a bunch of engineers who plan to run a car from a shed on a farm and spend the money on kit they need than a shiny advert in autosport...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by isynge

Inherently all of this starts to point at what I've long suspected - that the old sponsorship model introduced by Lotus in the 1960s has increasingly run its course, and that motorsport in general and sportscar racing in particular does not at present have a sustainable business model. If correctly done crowd funding helps redress this then I'm not sure I'm going to grumble, and who knows, I might even put my hand in my pocket...

Thats an interesting thought - but if you consider the number of cars being run worldwide in various categories by business sponsors money, I cannot see how crowd funding could ever replace that?

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mal

Thats an interesting thought - but if you consider the number of cars being run worldwide in various categories by business sponsors money, I cannot see how crowd funding could ever replace that?

I agree - I can't see crowdfunding being in any way the solution, but it might form part of the solution.

In terms of the number of cars being run? Well there's undeniably a lot of them, but how many are being run because the sponsor sees a measurable ROI from the engagement (be it through eyeballs seeing the name on the side of the car, the corporate entertainment opportunities trackside, or the exciting sport halo effect used in wider marketing) and how many because a particular corporate exec likes spending some of the profits generated by a successful business on a 'hobby' like racing?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by isynge

I agree - I can't see crowdfunding being in any way the solution, but it might form part of the solution.

In terms of the number of cars being run? Well there's undeniably a lot of them, but how many are being run because the sponsor sees a measurable ROI from the engagement (be it through eyeballs seeing the name on the side of the car, the corporate entertainment opportunities trackside, or the exciting sport halo effect used in wider marketing) and how many because a particular corporate exec likes spending some of the profits generated by a successful business on a 'hobby' like racing?

I think that depends on what level the racing is - as you move down from F1/Nascar I think the % of that will increase proportionally - clearly because the value of the exposure decreases in the lower categories. Which of course is how Bernie has made F1 so successful by creating a category at the expense of others that puts sponsors names on more TV screens and media pages worldwide than any other sport or sporting category.

What is interesting also is that manufacturers also appear to have moved away (deliberately or otherwise) from Title sponsors so that it is clearer who the manufacturer is. The names on manufacturers cars to me now are mostly those that have provided a service - either free or at a special rate - as part of a contribution to that car.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mal

I think that depends on what level the racing is - as you move down from F1/Nascar I think the % of that will increase proportionally - clearly because the value of the exposure decreases in the lower categories. Which of course is how Bernie has made F1 so successful by creating a category at the expense of others that puts sponsors names on more TV screens and media pages worldwide than any other sport or sporting category.

What is interesting also is that manufacturers also appear to have moved away (deliberately or otherwise) from Title sponsors so that it is clearer who the manufacturer is. The names on manufacturers cars to me now are mostly those that have provided a service - either free or at a special rate - as part of a contribution to that car.

Highly valid point about manufacturers - just think about Porsche, in the years I've been watching they've gone from:
- Drink Martini (sponsor)
- Splash Jules aftershave on (sponsor)
- Smoke Rothmans (sponsor)
- Put Shell fuel in your car (sponsor/supplier)
- Put Mobil1 lubricants in your car (supplier)
- Use DMG MORI industrial tools (I can only assume supplier)

Looking at the top end though, I'd say even F1 starts to show how some of the sponsorship model is creaking a bit even there. It's extraordinarily expensive, and the dilution of the offering into buying Paddock Club access as well as sponsoring teams / buying trackside adverts makes it harder and harder for the core offering i.e. teams getting paid to put on a show to show a profit.

Back to Brabham though, with crowdfunding comes engagement, and that's something that can then be sold to sponsors, i.e. if you're selling a particular sort of product (let's say Hackett clothing), and you identify your demographic as the sort of relatively affluent person who might be interested in motor racing, targeted marketing directly at a slice of the Brabham funder list might well be something that could show an ROI far more than simply writing "Hackett" on the side of the car, and thus be something that Brabham could usefully leverage to get towards their full budget.

[bella]

Originally Posted by isynge

Looking at the top end though, I'd say even F1 starts to show how some of the sponsorship model is creaking a bit even there. It's extraordinarily expensive, and the dilution of the offering into buying Paddock Club access as well as sponsoring teams / buying trackside adverts makes it harder and harder for the core offering i.e. teams getting paid to put on a show to show a profit.

i'd go as far to say that f1 has mostly business to business supplier type sponsorship, even at the front of the grid. the force indias (and at the start of the year, the caterhams) are a good example of the extreme end of that - team owners using the car to advertise their other brands. i wonder how much the individual "genuine" sponsors invest now compared to 10 years ago. i bet it hasn't changed that much at all, despite budgets increasing.

i think you see the same pattern in sportscars too but with fewer zeros on the end in most cases. the halo concept is an interesting one to quantify - arguably it's proven far easier to sell by a team rather than a series. you would think that the opportunity for failure as well as success may discourage companies from supporting a team, but a team has a clearer message and lifestyle than a whole series. people say f1 has no idea what it's trying to be - i'd argue there are very few, if any series that do. only formula e seems to now, which makes sense because it's a new concept.

[Coach Ep]

Since I've seen a number of you posting about making a donation to the Brabham project I'm wondering why you gave money to that project over the Perrin one? Especially with a lot of folks being full of praise about Perrin's response to the whole Brabham project and the headlines it has created.

I can only think that the Brabham name gave you more confidence and/or the hyped presentation led to some sort of momentum that made you decide to donate.

Also would like to ask if you (the Brabham donator) are considering donating for Perrin as well.

Thx.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

Since I've seen a number of you posting about making a donation to the Brabham project I'm wondering why you gave money to that project over the Perrin one? Especially with a lot of folks being full of praise about Perrin's response to the whole Brabham project and the headlines it has created.

I can only think that the Brabham name gave you more confidence and/or the hyped presentation led to some sort of momentum that made you decide to donate.

Also would like to ask if you (the Brabham donator) are considering donating for Perrin as well.

Thx.

I can see the value in supporting both, but interestingly, while the Perrin approach is considerably more in line with an open source ethos (which unlike crowd funding might actually seismically change how accessible sportscar racing is), there is a level to which the Brabham project presents itself as being more likely to put a car on the grid in a meaningful timeframe.

It's a combination of name, the fact that David Brabham is a former Le Mans winner, he's successfully engaged with mainstream media, and the approach is walk then run (i.e. an off the shelf LMP2 to start with), all combines to make me suspect that we may well see a Brabham entry next year, while Perrin still has a bit of a way to go.