Schummy did NOT deserve this win

[Inigo Montoya]

Ahhh, freud, please lemme have one day of happiness before I remember how disgraceful that was...

And anyways, I was, and still am, blaming Jean, Ross, and Luca for that more than the drivers..

[freud]

Inigo forgives Schu for post-canadian GP comments LOL. Cheers!

[Inigo Montoya]

I was never upset at TGF for anything he said in Canada.

[freud]

Ahh, its ok, dont worry. Good ol' Shu did a great job this season! The Toad got his task of letting good ol' Shu win the title ASAP. Now all is set for Ferrari to 'float'.

[Surtees]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
[B]Kimi would have been totally justified turning right into Schumacher as he was forced clean off the racing surface. It's the same kind of underhanded garbage driving that won him his first championship, and he hoped would win him his third in '97.

Why would he be justified? Schuey did nothing wrong. If there was oil on the track the marshalls could not see it, as explained in a previous post, Kimi slipped on the oil and/or lost concentration due to the spinning Toyota, was it driver error or just a slippy track, who knows? But it could have easily been Schuey slipping on the same oil patch and going wide too. Just one of those things! As for Schuey being aggressive in coming close to Kimi, what would Kimi have done if the situation was reversed? Schuey is an aggressive driver, I'm sure he would not try to "barge" Kimi off and ruin his own chances of finishing the race.

The question of the green flag and whether any overtaking should have taken place is a valid talking point....but if someone goes OFF TRACK under a yellow flag like Kimi did, is the rest of the field NOT meant to pass him? Are they meant to just grind to a halt behind him and wait for him to return to the track?

I was just as upset for Kimi, felt sorry for the poor guy, but he will have his day.

[1000HP]

I agree with u there Fuellerton... There was nothin wrong with MS passing Kimi considering he Mac driver was off track...
And about MS barging his way through, i reckon since Kimi was offtrack he should have watched for MS when getting back on it.

[Tristan]

Another topic just CHOC FULL of garbage. Where is the issue?? Where is the topic??

Again, I'm no major Schumi-lover, but the man's just won his FITH WDC!! And that's BETTER than Fangio - Don't forget that TGF's first was with a Ford V8!! Only the last TWO years can it be said that TGF's even had the best car. For all his critics and silly moves, the man IS a genius and ON THE WHOLE fair. Accept it. Please??

[Lee Janotta]

We need a clip.

To my view, Kimi had at least two wheels within the white painted line which defines the race surface at the time Schumacher came fully past, until the exit curbing ended, which meant that M$ forced Kimi off. That is unacceptable. If I'm wrong, and Kimi had all four wheels over the line the entire time of the pass, I'll admit it. If not, I'm right.

[AndyF]

Originally posted by Tristan
Another topic just CHOC FULL of garbage. Where is the issue?? Where is the topic??

Again, I'm no major Schumi-lover, but the man's just won his FITH WDC!! And that's BETTER than Fangio - Don't forget that TGF's first was with a Ford V8!! Only the last TWO years can it be said that TGF's even had the best car. For all his critics and silly moves, the man IS a genius and ON THE WHOLE fair. Accept it. Please??

Totally agree mate. Schuey is the No.1 this season - he just proved it by winning the championship. And what an acheivement, five is a very special number, more than Fangio.

[Tristan]

Lee. Did Kimi care?? Did he complain?? Any anger in the press conference?? No. Because this is RACING. Barging people out of the way is all part of it.

[EvilPumpkin]

I've just watched it again and Kimi did have 2 wheels on the circuit at the time he was passed - HOWEVER I will say YET again - TGF could have had very little and more probably NO visibility of Kimi's location at the time he went past him - based on the in-car footage.

No matter how it turns out, this will never, for me anyway, be a case of deliberate overtaking under yellows.

Oh and whilst I agree some of the posts are TFG bashing, I don't believe any of mine are. I'd be having the same discussion no matter who was involved.

[NiceGuyEddie]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
We need a clip.

To my view, Kimi had at least two wheels within the white painted line which defines the race surface at the time Schumacher came fully past, until the exit curbing ended, which meant that M$ forced Kimi off. That is unacceptable. If I'm wrong, and Kimi had all four wheels over the line the entire time of the pass, I'll admit it. If not, I'm right.

You better get your facts straight before you start slagging off drivers.

The stewards of the race watched the video and spoke to both Kimi and Michael, and no action was taken. Michaels victory is confirmed.

No, Schumacher didn't do Kimi any favours, but why would he? Taking that corner meant taking a fifth title. He saw Kimi go, focused on the brakingaera and got thru the Adelaide hairpin in one piece. Kimi is the one who is rejoining, and shouldnt interfere with other peoples racinglines while doing so.

[Lee Janotta]

Uh, AndyF, how is 5 more than 5???

Fangio took 5 championships in 7 seasons (sat one out with a broken neck). To my count, that's 5 fewer seasons than it's taken Schumacher.

Sure Kimi didn't pitch a fit, it's not his style, he's a quiet guy... But you could see he was seething during the podium ceremony.

Pumpkin, Schumacher couldn't have been ignoring his mirrors at a time like that, it just wouldn't make any sense not to be looking out for a fearless young Finn you've just passed, and who's desperate for his first win. Schumacher knew exactly where both cars were, and chose to put Kimi away by whatever method was necessary. The Finn was still on track but off the racing line, Schumacher decided to force him clean off.

This is a guy who won his first championship when the rightful champion, a man who would have taken at least two more championships since then, was killed in the third race of the season, who's team was still using electronic aids which had been banned, and who clinched the championship by driving straight into his rival! So what if he was using a Cosworth engine? He had traction control, launch control, and Benneton was the first team to make effective use of the raised nose. You want hard, try winning the championship in a '56 Ferrari, which was really a 2 year-old Lancia chassis! And the same dirty tactics have reappeared numerous times in his career. To compare him to Fangio is an insult of the highest order. Fangio was a gentlemen, and a true champion, who did things in a race car Schumacher would honestly wet himself if he tried!

[Inigo Montoya]

Lee, I think you are getting carried away. The mere fact that he has as many WDC as Fangio warrants a comparison on statistics alone. As for comparing the abilities of two drivers across 50 years of technological development, I think we can all agree that it is not possible.

[Lee Janotta]

Statistics don't matter, in the long run. It's the stories that last. Give me a Schumacher story that stands up to Fangio at the Nurburgring in '57. Or Senna at Donnington or Silverstone in '93, or at Monaco in '84. Or how about Gilles at Zandvoort in '79. Or even Alesi battling Senna at Phoenix in '90. I don't believe there's been anything even close. Only Schumi's first win, at Spa in '92, might even come close, and although it was a very good drive, it happened because Mansell and Patrese stayed on wet tires far too long.

[Valve Bounce]

This is an outrageous thread title post. Forget about the flags - both drivers had the same conditions, so this argument is a red herring. What I want to know was how come Ferrari had the sense to warn SchM well before the corner, and McLaren didn't (check the post race intereview if you don't believe me). SchM had to overcome the frustration of the drive through where he lost 2 places and track position to Kimi, and in the final stint, it did appear to me that Kimi had the faster car.
I also don't think SchM drove Kimi off the track intentionally - he hit oil also, and IMO he braked just in time. Whichever way you look at it, if the drivers were reversed and it was SchM who slid off, this thread wouldn't exist.
Some people need to get a grip on themselves.
I felt SchM did drive a great race today, (OK yesterday), and his was the drive of the day. So there!! How do you like them for apples. AND I don't even like the guy.

Valve

[Valve Bounce]

OMIGOD, let's not have another SchM bash again - this is getting really silly now.

Valve

[Mekola]

Magny-Cours 2002 hasn't any point to comparison with Nürburgring 1957...

Congrats for the Fifth Title, Mr. von Tr... Schumacher!:P

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Statistics don't matter, in the long run. It's the stories that last. Give me a Schumacher story that stands up to Fangio at the Nurburgring in '57. Or Senna at Donnington or Silverstone in '93

I know of two very good comparisons to these stories:

Nurburgring '57 - Schumacher's victory in 1995 at the new Nurburgring was a very similar drive I think. He reeled in Jean Alesi's Ferrari from a 43 second gap. Fangio pulled off the same thing against Ferrari at the old Nurburgring in '57 with Mike Hawthorn.

Donington '93 - Schumacher winning the wet race at Monaco in 1997 by 53 seconds springs to mind here. Remember that he was the only one to go for a full wet setup, just like Senna at Donington '93.


'Nuff said.

[z2252314]

During qualifying, Michaels car went across the curb by a centremetres and they took away the time as he was off track for a split second. Today, Kimi put his whole car off the track while frantically locking up, and people are saying Michael should be punished? Im still trying to understand the argument against MS here. Surely we dont expect drivers to wait for their opponents to recover from mistakes before resuming racing? One could also argue that kimi should have excercised more caution under the yellow. At a lower entry speed, he most likely would have made the corner. Either way, no one here is at fault, their is no 'incident', its just a bunch of hype perpetuated by that sore looser Ron Dennis.

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
We need a clip. To my view, Kimi had at least two wheels within the white painted line which defines the race surface at the time Schumacher came fully past, until the exit curbing ended, which meant that M$ forced Kimi off. That is unacceptable. If I'm wrong, and Kimi had all four wheels over the line the entire time of the pass, I'll admit it. If not, I'm right.

Lee, I think you have been inflammatory and out of line on this thread.

As discussed in another thread, my slow-mo replaying of the incident showed that Kimi put all four wheels off the track, and had managed to get only one back across the line at the rumble strip when MS nosed ahead. EvilP sees two wheels back across, but it doesn't matter. Kimi was off the race track all on his own.

My interpretation of the rules is that it was clearly Kimi's responsibility to avoid other cars when re-entering the circuit after going off. MS never put a wheel over the white line when he supposedly forced Kimi onto the rumble strip. Further, EvilP is correct in that MS would have had great difficulty in even seeing that Kimi was about to side-swipe him.

[eatapc]

And by the way, why do people hate Michael Schumacher? He's so cute.

[Jukebox]

LOL..i just knew it, right after the race i've forseen this type of threads would appear. If Schumacher wins, there will be sour grapes all week long crying foul

What's luck got to do with it? Kimi was obviously inexperienced, Ron should have cautioned him in advance....what's the point of having two way communication radio?

If DC was in Kimi's place, the win had been McLaren's.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Yoong Montoya


I know of two very good comparisons to these stories:

Nurburgring '57 - Schumacher's victory in 1995 at the new Nurburgring was a very similar drive I think. He reeled in Jean Alesi's Ferrari from a 43 second gap. Fangio pulled off the same thing against Ferrari at the old Nurburgring in '57 with Mike Hawthorn.

Fangio did manage to beat his pole time by 8 seconds during one of the closing laps of that race... An incredible feat. Schumacher must share credit for that win with the Renault engine... In Canada that year Alesi managed the only non-Renault victory. I'll say maybe on this...

Donington '93 - Schumacher winning the wet race at Monaco in 1997 by 53 seconds springs to mind here. Remember that he was the only one to go for a full wet setup, just like Senna at Donington '93.

And both the Williams cars were set up for full dry. _Really_ dumb move. Alesi was taken out early in what could have been a very good race for him... It was an excellent lapping exercise, a great demonstration of precise driving (except for the mistake at St. Devote), but it's not comparable, as Michael didn't have to slice up through traffic.

'Nuff said.

My point is that the stories which will be told for decades about Schumacher are about Adelaide '94 and Jerez '97... That's not good for him, and not good for the sport.

As for his driving skill, he's very formidable, but he can be shaken, makes mistakes, can suffer significant brain fade if he's got too big a lead... And where I'm unimpressed is his skill in traffic of nearly equal speed. Certainly better than his brother, but that's not too hard... I've never seen him come from midfield, though.

eatapc, I don't apologize if I've been inflammatory. There's nothing wrong with having open debates over the merits of different drivers. Schumacher, being so obviously on top, is going to get the brunt of the examination.

But I've just watched the replay frame by frame, and when Schumacher was dead even with Kimi, the Finn's car was totally in-bounds, half inside the line on the racing surface, and half on the curbing. Schumacher came thru at full tilt, showing little concern for safety, and forced Kimi to take evasive action to the outside. "That's dirty pool, that is." commented David Hobbs. The FIA won't make a fuss, but that was _not_ necessary to make the pass, as Michael had the momentum and the inside line.

[enemy-ace]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
What I want to know was how come Ferrari had the sense to warn SchM well before the corner, and McLaren didn't (check the post race intereview if you don't believe me).

Michael Schumacher- Post Race Press Conference: "Ten laps from the end I started to push again, pick up the pace and put some pressure on him and you never know what might happen. I don't think the pressure, that much, was the problem for Kimi because if you don't see the oil, you don't see it and that's it, wherever you break. I was obviously warned by seeing his problem, so I was reacting a little bit to it and that was my opportunity."

Apparently you are mistaken Valve, it would appear it was good reactions from a well seasoned GP Racer. Schumacher has made a career of maximising his opportunities, and after seeing Raikonnens dilemma he reacted and seized the opportunity.
As for some people's argument that Michael ran Kimi wide, I just don't see it. The natural line exiting that corner is very close to the outside. Even more so if you consider that Michael had to enter the corner at a much tighter angle to avoid the oil and Kimi.
And Ron Dennis a sore loser? Of course he is! You don't win as many WDC's and WCC's as he has with McLaren by being a nice loser. If there is any minute chance that Michael's pass was illegal you would be foolish not to question it.

I think some people's biases are blinding them to what is really a non-issue. Kimi learned a hard lesson today and Michael showed why he is a consistent winner.
And for the record, I am not a Michael fan, but I am quickly becoming a Raikonnen fan.