Le Mans style finishes and small grids (was 360 MRC Snetterton)

[Steve Tarrant]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Le Mans finishes, I'm not comfortable but it does seem common now. I particularly don't like it at Le Mans, actually, since they do it on the last racing lap. Heaven knows what'll happen the day they have two cars racing for the line who then need to do an emergency stop and handbrake turn through the line of marshals down the finish straight...

I can answer this one from first hand experience. If two or more cars are still racing for position, then we are told by the chef de poste NOT TO GO OUT! Full stop, no deviation from instruction.

And that will include the marshals after the finish line that form the funnel to take the cars off.

[warweezil]

Wasn't there.. the chancellor ensures I am very restricted in my mileage - but my own view on grid sizes - and being new enough to this to still be able to remember it from a speccys POV as well...

Ive seen races with larger grids that turn into dodgems sessions.. no skill... no excitement... and almost zero enjoyment.... Ive seen very thin grids with drivers who wanted the result so badly they pushed to and sometimes past the limit... resulting in some great moves and displays of both skill and "oh you jammy..... how did you pull that one off??!!" type moments.

Sounds like a great meeting - The comment about a meeting only being as good as the people there is spot on, above and beyond the racing - there has to be some "chemistry" there - thats why this year I have enjoyed 3 evens that I covered far more than any others recently.

Hopefully in years to come this new club can go "on the road", and "share the love" It sounds like a great mix of machines.

Just My Opinion.... YMMV

[NICK ALLISON]

I was unable to attend this race due to committments elsewhere .However I have followed the development of this race virtually since day one on 10/10ths .From a bit of "Blue Sky " thinking the 360 MRC was created by Club Racers for Club Racers and reading the reports the first event was really well done. Both Claire Smith and John Smith together with others put a lot of their own time and money into the race meeting and created the organisational,competitor and marshalling infrastructure to carry this out with no pre existing resources to draw on.From that alone they deserve a large slice of praise.The meeting was seemingly well organisd and more to the point as safe as a race meeting can be for teams,drivers and marshals.
I am sure any safety issues from the first of the 360 MRC organised meeting will be ironed out by the experienced organisers and will be resolved for next time .
We all have to start somewhere ," Every journey has to start with a single step ".

[blueoval2]

I think to clap or wave at drivers at the end of a race is fine i as a marshal i am not a fan of all the flag waving. The two Britcar 24hr's i did we just stood at the end of the armco and waved or clapped i think thats enough.

[exflagman]

I looks like I have got a thread of my own - without even trying!

I would like to reiterate that which I posted early on - it was definitly not my intention to hi-jack the original thread.

All I was trying to do was to understand why Senior Race Officials seemed to be taking a new line on how we handle the end of races by supporting/promoting the practice of the whole world and his dog standing trackside and waving every available flag on the slowing down lap.
I admit I was not at the meeting, so could not be aware of the circumstances, so was curious as to why such a change to the standard procedure was being promoted.
Given that the meeting was being promoted by a new club it did occur to me that perhaps it might be part of that clubs agenda to change the way things are done.

As a flag marshal for too many years than I care to remember - though not currently active for various reasons - and a one time MSA licensed Training Instructor specialising in Flag Training I was concerned that changes appear to being made without any apparent discussion on the potential consequences.

Again, it was never my intention to put down the efforts of the people involved in trying to create a new initiative - in many ways the aims of the 360 club seem to me to be to provide the type of meeting that I used to enjoy as a flag marshal and used to advocate as the best way to learn the art of blue-flagging.

Do we really want to go down the continental path of everyone standing trackside waving flags? - it appears from some replies that some are in favour of such a practice.
I must admit to be very anti such practices and have over the years done my best to disuade their uptake in the UK.

Maybe we should look at the pros and cons of the activity.

PROS.
Some marshals like the idea as it enhances their enjoyment by making them feel part of the event.
Some drivers appear to like the idea.
They do it elswhere!

My only comment is 'everyone to his own' and if that sort of thing turns you on who am I to object, but please don't try to impose such practices on me and other like-minded marshals unless its a properly controlled standardised MSA sactioned procedure.

CONS. - and here I emphasise that they are my own feelings and I am happy to discuss any of the points.

Safety
The track is still active even though the chequered flag has flown. Is it advisable for marshals to go trackside just to wave to the drivers - you can just as easily do it from behind the barrier.

How do we reconcile this sort of activity with the attitude of some IO's/Post Chiefs that the flag marshals should be waving a yellow flag between sessions if marshals are trackside in case a course car driver gets over enthusiastic?

If everyone is waving flags - how do we indicate to drivers that a new hazard has occured - a car runs out of fuel/has a mechanical problem etc.

Though we all hope that all drivers will slow down sufficiently on the cool down lap there are always the small minority that don't - for whatever reason.

Drivers have been known to miss the chequered flag and continue round for another lap - do you want do be trackside in this situation.

Cars have been known to collide after the flag - a few years ago a big accident occured at Oulton Park when two drivers trying for the same finishing place also managed to try for the same piece of track space - result - One car on top of the barriers on the approach to Old Hall and the other reduced to its component parts most the way along the pit straight

Logistics
Where do the flags come from - are there sufficient spare flags on the post or do the trackside guys just 'borrow' them from the flag marshals - OK until the situation changes and the Flag Marshal suddenly finds that the flag he needs is being waved trackside.

How do you control who and under what circumstances goes trackside/waves the flags - especially if something untoward occurs on the slowing down lap. Once you have everyone out trackside its very difficult to get them back!.

Over to you on both sides of the argument (ducks and runs for cover)

[NICK ALLISON]

What is done is done .Perhaps we should move on and let the 360MRC decide on this issue for the next event ?

[Justin Moran]

As an occasional flaggie I love the idea of flag waving at the end of a significant event, it adds to the atmosphere imho! Common sense should always prevail and Im sure it would in 99% of cases but there is always someone who just has to do everything by the book and no deviation or assessment of circumstance would dissuade them otherwise. Well thats their choice I suppose. We volunteer to enjoy these events, if no enjoyment then why volunteer?

I would have loved to be there and Im sorry to have missed a special event but work forbade my participation on this occasion, I will endeavour to attend next years event if possible no matter the entry. Snetterton is still on my list of "must do" circuits, this sounds like a good event to tick that box!

Well done Claire, I hope the RLM crew did their bit to help?

[White flag man]

Firstly let me say that I wasn't there.
Secondly let me congratulate Claire, and everyone else on, what seems to be magnificent effort to get this meeting organised.
I do, however, worry about the grid size. As a marshal I do not particularly want to stand around for 6 hours watching 8 cars and, Claire, I do know a lot of the regular marshals and I DO know that some did not enjoy it. I hope you manage to find out, really, why the grid size went from 47 (I've been told) to just 8.
The problem you may have now is that marshals may look at this event next year and say "I wonder what else is on ?", as they now do when it comes to a certain "Speed" series and once they start doing that, it's very difficult to get them back.
I realise that it would have been great for all the drivers and teams and well done to them all.
I wish you all the best for next year and urge as many teams as possible to make this the sucess it deserves to be.
As for the Le Mans style finish, you have to adapt to the situation. 8 cars, very experienced marshals, one of the best post chiefs in the business.........I don't see any problem with it.
Hope to attend this event next year.
I'm now looking forward to spending 24 hours on the bank watching 2CVs, and I love it.


Nick Bowen.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by C9/89

Snetterton is still on my list of "must do" circuits, this sounds like a good event to tick that box!

Well done Claire, I hope the RLM crew did their bit to help?

Yes, you should do it

Thank you, RLM's John Hindhaugh....what can I say...a hero

I had a long call with him on the Wednesday before the event, it wasnt looking good at all with the grid size, he was such a great help....such a great guy ...really was ...so we never had anyone enter CLASS A (upto 1300) so we had a trophy entitled "1st CLASS A"...and we thought it was fitting that as he had commentated on his own for 6 hours, ran up and down the stairs of race control to get to the pit lane interviewing drivers and teams and anyone he could thrust a radio mike in front of and for his sheer gut love of all things endurance and MotorSport he was 1ST CLASS A.

[PenelopePitstop]

As a driver who was there, here is my recolection of how team Mont Blanc finished, in good visability.

While driving along the pit straight the pit crews of the entire field showed there enthusiam that we where approaching the finish line. (so I was aware it was the finish)

A man with a stick with a bit of black and white cloth on the end of it waved said bit of cloth at me from the designated point (to tell the truth I had seen this at Russel). I slowed to a speed that allowed me to show appreciation to the marshals, in saftey.

I was then greated with said wonderfull marshals waving all the flags they could find. (thank you)

If at that point I was not aware the race had ended, I think someone should take my license and give it to the steward, then arrange safe transport for me back to the home.

I would also like to state, that at all points at the time I passed every one was at there posts, not on the circut or wandering down the bank.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by White flag man

Firstly let me say that I wasn't there.
I do, however, worry about the grid size. As a marshal I do not particularly want to stand around for 6 hours watching 8 cars and, Claire, I do know a lot of the regular marshals and I DO know that some did not enjoy it. I hope you manage to find out, really, why the grid size went from 47 (I've been told) to just 8.


Nick Bowen.

Nick, If you can get me their contact details I would be happy to apologise to them personally, I am sorry if they did not enjoy what, clearly judging by the majority of the posts, everyone else who was there did. I value their support as we have always said, so if you could PM me with those details then Id be happy to listen to their comments and thank them personally for attending.

Just to confirm the grid size was never 47 cars, that was the maximum grid we could have at Snett. There would have been 23 cars if everyone who promised to come did come, however, such is the nature of our beloved beast called Motorsport that things fail on cars and given the timing of the event could be a factor and not forgetting finance. Also, apparently, there was a rumour that we had actually sold the day to a track day company, probably didn't help did it?, that said, in my eyes, and in most of the eyes of the people who attended and certainly in the eyes of JohnGee and all at 360 it was a great success, as I said, success is not measured by grid size, sorry but its not.

Thanks again

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

We didn't put this on as some sort of "service", it isn't measured by a service level agreement "sorry...only eight cars ....thats unacceptable"...no...I think not

I wasn't there, and I wasn't the one who was complaining, but allow me to elaborate anyway.

We marshals like motor racing, and we like good motor racing. Watching cars circulate in a procession, without close racing is not what we want to see or are prepared to give up our weekends to see, whether it's 2 or 3 cars, or 20 or 30. However, the quantity of cars in a race is a pretty fair indicator of how much race action there is going to be.

I wouldn't read too much into what people call "acceptable" or at the very least, substitute the word "acceptable" with "interesting." If your race series is, or becomes uninteresting, you may find that marshal support for it starts to wane. This, I believe, is what people are really trying to say.

G'luck, and happy racing

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Drivers have been known to miss the chequered flag and continue round for another lap - do you want do be trackside in this situation.

Interesting you mention that one. On many occasions i've seen drivers miss the chequered flag and continue at racing speed. In fact i've had to dive for cover when directing drivers in to parc ferme at Oulton due to such a fact, warned by the oh-so-contencious scanner I'm not saying i agree or disagree with waving every bit of cloth imaginable at the end of the race, but if all posts did from the safety of the barrier then what better way to "repeat" the chequered and help the driver realise the race is over...

Always too sides to a story, always a good and bad way to see things. The key is being able to see both clearly and be objective in the decision. 360MRC i salute you for what must have been a very difficult undertaking. I'm sure the enthusiasm of the club will bring more to it and it'll grow in to one of the greats, maybe a 1/4 size Willhire!

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by exflagman

If everyone is waving flags - how do we indicate to drivers that a new hazard has occured - a car runs out of fuel/has a mechanical problem etc.

Flaggie (who gets to keep a yellow) blows a whistle. Everybody stops waving, except the flaggie with the yellow?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Flaggie (who gets to keep a yellow) blows a whistle. Everybody stops waving, except the flaggie with the yellow?

Nah, that would just look like the flaggie had no friends...

[The Flagman]

I've been a Flaggie for over 20 years and there have been a handful of occasions during that time that were truly atmospheric and there was a spontaneous breaking out of all the flags.

Two in particular spring to mind - Jean Alesi winning the F3000 race at Birmingham. He performed donuts in his car right in front of us and we responded with every bit of cloth we could find. No-one could possibly confuse the extravagant display with the normal flag situation so no problem. The other was at Goodwood a few years back when after an epic race Whizzo beat Fearless Frank to the flag. Wonderful performance and extra flags displayed all round the far side of the circuit past St Mary's. Again no question this was a celebration.

On both these occasions there was great joy and euphoria and a truly great moment on post enhanced no doubt by the notion we had done something really naughty for the UK because it is so strongly discouraged. Just adds to the feeling.

Lets just keep it for very special times - last weekend seemed appropriate.

DM

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by The Flagman

Lets just keep it for very special times - last weekend seemed appropriate.

So, it's dangerous, but it's okay on special occasions? Hmm, I was particularly impressed with a well timed blue flag I put out the other day. May I run into the middle of the track and do a couple of cart-wheels the next time?

[Dave Brand]

I'm not happy with the so-called "le Mans Style Finish". A few years ago an Oulton BSB meeting two riders collided after the chequered flag exiting Old Hall; one rider & his bike ended up lying in the middle of the track, the other ran wide onto the grass. The Old Hall In flaggie immediately waved a yellow to alert oncoming riders. Had we all been trackside waving every available flag there would have been no way of warning the other riders & there would have been a real possibility of a marshal being hit by one of the bikes.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Had we all been trackside waving every available flag there would have been no way of warning the other riders & there would have been a real possibility of a marshal being hit by one of the bikes.

So you don't think that it's reasonable that:

A) Nobody goes trackside, at the very least between the finish and the first corner. And;
B) If there is an incident, everybody except yellow flag stops waving

?

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Nick, If you can get me their contact details I would be happy to apologise to them personally, I am sorry if they did not enjoy what, clearly judging by the majority of the posts, everyone else who was there did. I value their support as we have always said, so if you could PM me with those details then Id be happy to listen to their comments and thank them personally for attending.

Just to confirm the grid size was never 47 cars, that was the maximum grid we could have at Snett. There would have been 23 cars if everyone who promised to come did come, however, such is the nature of our beloved beast called Motorsport that things fail on cars and given the timing of the event could be a factor and not forgetting finance. Also, apparently, there was a rumour that we had actually sold the day to a track day company, probably didn't help did it?, that said, in my eyes, and in most of the eyes of the people who attended and certainly in the eyes of JohnGee and all at 360 it was a great success, as I said, success is not measured by grid size, sorry but its not.

Thanks again

Thanks Claire,
I will see most, if not all, of the regular marshals this weekend. If necessary, I will be only too willing to pass on what you have said.
As for the certain marshals who told me about the 47 cars, I shall try and make sure he does the Bombhole Out post for the whole 2CV 24hrs, as it has no shelter!
Your, right, success is not necessarily measured by grid size but, truthfully, enthusiasm from most marshals is.
All the best for next year.

Nick.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Guinness2702

Flaggie (who gets to keep a yellow) blows a whistle. Everybody stops waving, except the flaggie with the yellow?

Can he keep the oil as well, just in case!

Oh and better keep the white in case a service vehicle gets scrambled.

The flags are on the flag point for a reason - there not there as toys for everyone else.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by White flag man

As for the Le Mans style finish, you have to adapt to the situation. 8 cars, very experienced marshals, one of the best post chiefs in the business.........I don't see any problem with it.

Nick Bowen.

Except that now someone has set a precedent, endorsed by senior officials - next time it might not a set of experienced marshals, a lot more cars and an inexperienced post chief.

These things have a habit of spreading. Remember back to when the Hazard Board was introduced - it seemed a good way of limiting the time we had shut down a sector for a minor pull-off, until someone decided that we had to display a yellow flag for at least 2 laps before we could show the HB. Suddenly a simple pull-off had shut down a track section for several laps. It seemed to take an awful lot of effort to dispel that rumour and get back to using the HB as it was intended.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Except that now someone has set a precedent, endorsed by senior officials - next time it might not a set of experienced marshals, a lot more cars and an inexperienced post chief.

These things have a habit of spreading. Remember back to when the Hazard Board was introduced - it seemed a good way of limiting the time we had shut down a sector for a minor pull-off, until someone decided that we had to display a yellow flag for at least 2 laps before we could show the HB. Suddenly a simple pull-off had shut down a track section for several laps. It seemed to take an awful lot of effort to dispel that rumour and get back to using the HB as it was intended.

I understand, and agree, with a lot that you have said.
However, endurance races are different. It takes an awful lot of effort to get to the end of an endurance race and, as a result, the marshals tend to show there appreciation in a noticeable way. Also, the teams are well of when the race is about to finish.
I, and I imagine most other marshals, would not even think about waving all the flags at the end of most meetings (especially F1), for safety reasons and it would probably confused the .... out of some drivers.
I disagree that this has set a precedent. These are one off races and should be treated as such.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by PenelopePitstop

If at that point I was not aware the race had ended, I think someone should take my license and give it to the steward, then arrange safe transport for me back to the home.

I would also like to state, that at all points at the time I passed every one was at there posts, not on the circut or wandering down the bank.

Great post, me lady

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Can he keep the oil as well, just in case!

Oh and better keep the white in case a service vehicle gets scrambled.

The flags are on the flag point for a reason - there not there as toys for everyone else.

Do you think it's reasonable for drivers to be driving in such a way, after the chequered flag, that they risk driving in to *any* slow moving vehicle, a service vehicle, or even another competitor; or should I be putting out a white flag for every driver who slows down to wave to people or to talk to his fellow competitors?

Oil flag is perhaps more debatable, but again, I'd expect drivers not to be travelling at that great a speed (and yes, I appreciate that oil can be a problem, even at slower speeds).

Flags are not toys, but a motor race is an event, a spectacle, and we have to take a balanced approach to risk. I think it's a great shame that this doesn't happen, and I think that with a bit of careful thought, we can probably do it in a way that is no more dangerous than anything else we do as marshals. You do understand, that I'm not suggesting that we all just go out and do this willy-nilly, but that someone at BMMC or MSA, or whoever thinks about it, and provides a set of guidlines on how this could be done, if it can be done safely?