Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Just go Vegan! Although given the choice of giving up meat or giving up European trips the bacon buttie wins every time ;-)

>>>>>>>I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'

Because the MSUK can't think beyond commercial race teams, privateers racing for fun don't cross their minds. We see it all the time in karting.

I think that MSUK item is wrong .
Cars do not need an ATA , but as in Duddha,s link , they will need a CPD for some countries which are not in Europe .
And the ATA for spares etc is not needed if you go by this link
https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily
which means you can do it by "Duplicate List ".
But it seems that most of the information put out will be to try to make people pay for things which are not actually needed.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

seen that before; as Tel911 alluded to, it states:

'You mainly need a CPD in:

Africa
Asia
the Middle East
Oceania (the Pacific)
South America'

Not Europe?

[MGDavid]

The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?

Best address that question to Mr B Johnson, Downing St or Ms U Van der Layan, Brussels

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

This is correct for rest of the world. It may apply to EU for single seaters, but cars with a V5C are a different animal. I contacted MSUK today. They werent very helpful. They appear to have not sort guidance from HMRC, they have been advised by the Chamber of Commerce. From what I understand it is the Chamber of Commerce that they are doing their scheme through......who I assume see selling more Carnet as advantageous. When I mentioned the tripple list solution and sent them the link they failed to even comment on it.

If my car has a V5C then I can "take" it through the port without a Carnet if I am driving. My question is simple, why would this import duty position change if I were to be towing it instead?

Our race cars are a small part. The same must apply to rally cars. But it would also apply to Smart cars on Motorhomes and moped/scooters on motorhomes that have nothing to do with racing.

I e-called HMRC and had a discussion with them. They pointed me to CARS Europe. I said that I wanted a definitive decision from HMRC, CARS are a commercial organisation with a vested interest. The kind lady sent me a form which I have sent off.

I went through Switzerland to Monza with a single seater a few years ago (car has a V5C). I enquired beofre I went and was assured it was OK. I did the red lane and stopped etc at the border. The guards were fine once they saw the V5C

I dont think yesterdays communication from MSUK was sufficiently well researched and it didnt really appreciate the position of the average club guy who manages to squeeze a trip to Spa once a year

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?

VAT?

As for those mentioning the "duplicate list" (something I've never heard of), have a look at the very limited goods you can use it for.

[Alfaholic]

One piece of 'good' news is that at least those of you lucky enough to own vehicles over 50 years old and valued at over £65,000 won't need to apply for an export licence each time you take it abroad for a race meeting as there is a specific exemption

2.An individual export licence is not required to export the following goods
...
c)any motor vehicle (wherever registered) over 50 years of age (other than those designed or adapted for military or paramilitary use) temporarily exported for a period of less than 6 months for use for social, domestic or pleasure purposes (including attendance at or participation in a race, rally, or non-commercial exhibition)

From https://www.artscouncil.org.uk/sites...1%202021_0.pdf

And to reply to Gerard's comment of "And who can check if you leave your country with a top notch engine in your van and bring back a total wreck with no crank/pistons. Nobody! "

The engine number would have to be quoted on the carnet and Border Force can check. The same applies to chassis numbers for complete vehicles.

[Duddha]

I would just say that yes the FIA is investigating.

The fact is that this has and will have an impact on the sport and the fault is to put on the Brexit. EU and all major countries such as Switzerland and even all the way to Turkey have built and have had agreements for circulations of goods for years, it did not happen overnight. So clarification and answer cannot either be expected overnight either as it's not as straightforward as one may think.

Commercial, non-commercial, registered, non-registered, there are various aspects linked to customs but not only. The other aspect is that glimpse and bits of information spread over huge number of posts will not answer the questions. Wait and information will be clarified.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Duddha

I would just say that yes the FIA is investigating.

The fact is that this has and will have an impact on the sport and the fault is to put on the Brexit. EU and all major countries such as Switzerland and even all the way to Turkey have built and have had agreements for circulations of goods for years, it did not happen overnight. So clarification and answer cannot either be expected overnight either as it's not as straightforward as one may think.

Commercial, non-commercial, registered, non-registered, there are various aspects linked to customs but not only. The other aspect is that glimpse and bits of information spread over huge number of posts will not answer the questions. Wait and information will be clarified.

Thanks again Louis, I suspect you will receive encouragement from many sources including Redwater and Peter Auto, Masters and possibly MRL to name a few.

It does appear that the MSUK arrangement has followed a business rather than an "amateur" approach which is strange since I suspect their biggest audience would be us amateurs.

[delta]

Thanks for starting this tread. I hope in a couple of weeks what I have to do both as a race car prep team and private racer will be laid out in an understanding manor for all.I remember being down the pub and everyone telling me how much better off I am going to be by leaving the E U. " I wanted to stay BTW ".

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, some things will take time to resolve but hopefully with Louis and the FIA on the case we can get some clarity.

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Right, I understand your point of view. Seems that should you cross the border its either you declare to be a tourist travelling for leasure only or a pro, the last involving a carnet. Hope this will be amended for Motorsport at least.
But prepare yourself to an increase in costs and time spent.

It does not work like that, customs have the right to review that and commercial (pro) or non-commercial operations although defined, it's like the fact a singleseater may in fact have a registration, the customs still have power to stop, review and oblige you into another procedure as the intention prevails, therefore ATA is the way to go. Just like duplicate listings only cover particular items, say you have a spare engine, this falls under the carnet policy as I understand it right now.

[andy97]

I was hoping to go to Spa this year with CSCC in June; I have only raced there once, a few years ago, and had a difficult time with an unreliable car so I had promised myself another go, possibly in the Mk2 Escort.
Cant see me bothering now; it’s already a very expensive meeting by my standards and if the bill rises by another few hundred pounds that is the difference between me going or not. Oh well, at least I can say I raced there once.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by andy97

I was hoping to go to Spa this year with CSCC in June; I have only raced there once, a few years ago, and had a difficult time with an unreliable car so I had promised myself another go, possibly in the Mk2 Escort.
Cant see me bothering now; it’s already a very expensive meeting by my standards and if the bill rises by another few hundred pounds that is the difference between me going or not. Oh well, at least I can say I raced there once.

I am glad that I had the opportunity to race there for years with no paperwork at all and I hope that you will race there in the future when things "might" get sensible again. One thing is that speeding cameras in the EU can't now automatically fine you with UK plates, however it also works for "foreign" vehicles in the UK. So get yourself a foreign plate for use in the UK

[delta]

Originally Posted by andy97

I was hoping to go to Spa this year with CSCC in June; I have only raced there once, a few years ago, and had a difficult time with an unreliable car so I had promised myself another go, possibly in the Mk2 Escort.
Cant see me bothering now; it’s already a very expensive meeting by my standards and if the bill rises by another few hundred pounds that is the difference between me going or not. Oh well, at least I can say I raced there once.

Never say Never Andy. I am telling all my customers just to sit tight and drink tea.or beer. I am sure there will be a sensible solution. We have Louis on our side.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by delta

Never say Never Andy. I am telling all my customers just to sit tight and drink tea.or beer. I am sure there will be a sensible solution. We have Louis on our side.

I certainly won’t make any decisions now. Let’s face it, we can’t even make a decision about where we can go for a walk right now as the rules/ guidance change all the time.
Plenty of water to flow through the North Sea and English Channel yet!

[The Fat Clerk]

One thing is that speeding cameras in the EU can't now automatically fine you with UK plates, [/QUOTE]

Didn't realise that, yet another reason to be glad for Brexit

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

One thing is that speeding cameras in the EU can't now automatically fine you with UK plates,

Didn't realise that, yet another reason to be glad for Brexit [/QUOTE]


Yes, it was mentioned on the front page of the Times today.....apparently Brits are by far the worst offenders in France, and France stand to lose about 60m Euro as a result of losing this income stream. Of course if anything other than an automatic camera gets you, you can still be liable to an on-the-spot cash fine

[midgetman]

Equally it works the other way. Johnny Foreigner will get away with speeding across the UK. We could lose a similar amount

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Lancsbreaker]

I very much doubt whether we've been organised enough to chase many non-UK drivers up - just like most non UK health service users doon't get checked or charged.

[Newall Andy]

Guy I know well took a car to Lille the other day and returned the day after... his passport was checked and stamped and that was that ! Customs didn't even ask where he was going or who's car it was. The Covid checker only just remembered to check his cert was negative !!
Im going to Hamburg tomorrow to collect a Cobra and from what i've heard it all seems very positive.... lets hope my Covid test result isn't.

[Peter Mallett]

Good luck Andy, do let us know how it goes.

[john ruston]

I can’t see you having a problem Andy!
Nice easy going bloke.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Answer is to race road registered vehicles!
No carnet
Reason for us playing with those Pre War things

Fortunately all my cars are road registered, MOT'd insured and taxed.

Still sounds like a massively unecessary ball ache for no good reason . . . given my general dislike of travel in this country I don't suppose I'll be racing much until things revert or sort themselves out. Euro trips were always far more appealing.

More tempted than ever to sell everything. Which is exactly what a fair few friends have already done.

[Colin McKay]

Good luck Andy. This was the scene yesterday at Ashford Customs. According to the local rag, although they didn't say if this was import or export, some drivers queued for 8 hours to clear. Older truckers on here will remember "standing on the stairs" at Dover. At least there was a roof then, "standing in the rain" seems to be the modern equivalent.

The Portacabins you can see are what is being used by HMRC while they continue building the new facility, last I heard it will not be open until the end of Feb. I imagine the lousy weather we're having will push that back further. Photo from the RHA.