Who's gone, Raikkonen or Massa? - Page 2

**Bononi** · 3 Jul 2009, 17:41 (Ref:2495582)

The perception from the other side of the tube is always a myopic distortion of the reality...[gasp]

HughGJohnson · 4 Jul 2009, 13:44 (Ref:2495774)

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...rraris-sights/

Note that the Spanish paper has Alonso to Ferrari and the German paper has Vettel to Ferrari. Also noteworthy is Bernie chiming in. Why does he always have an opinion?

Keep in mind these rumors started early last year when the Renault was struggling and Ferrari were frontrunners. Brawn, Red Bull and Toyota all arll ahead of Ferrari and each could have an open seat. BMW could even be an option. They showed that they are serious last year. The car aweful this year, but they will be working on next year's car. As for Ferrari, by the time they have an open seat they may be looking for younger talent than Alonso. Vettel to Ferrari in two years makes more sense to me.

**Bononi** · 4 Jul 2009, 15:58 (Ref:2495805)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

Vettel to Ferrari in two years makes more sense to me.

Exactly. TGF is a enthusiast of the talents of the kid, and his opinions weights more than anything else there... Vettel already might have a foot in there.

Ralf's Girl · 4 Jul 2009, 17:06 (Ref:2495824)

I seem to recall that Ferrari announced last year that Raikkonen had extended his contract until the end of 2010, but if they're looking to offload a driver, it would have to be him (I'm guessing it would require a fairly hefty pay-off). He looked completely uninterested last year and failed to win a race after the Spanish GP, and this year he can be forgiven for not winning, but Massa seems to be getting a lot more out of the car.

Alonso going to Ferrari is the common assumption, but I can definitely see Vettel there at some point, and I'm not sure that he would be Alonso's number one choice of team-mate.

Yannick · 4 Jul 2009, 17:50 (Ref:2495836)

How about Alonso to BMW to partner Kubica? They couldn't get back Vettel for this year, so why should Ferrari get him?

If Alonso were to leave, who would go to Renault? Kovalainen?

scoobiesnoop · 4 Jul 2009, 23:06 (Ref:2495917)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

Note that the Spanish paper has Alonso to Ferrari and the German paper has Vettel to Ferrari. Also noteworthy is Bernie chiming in. Why does he always have an opinion?

Thing is, Bernie DOESN'T have an opinion. When asked about who will win in 2007 he said Alonso then it was Raikkonen then it was Hamilton. On the will they won't they break away/FOTA/FIA bickering he said - erm well nothing really, at least nothing constructive other than they won't split. Bernie does most of his 'talking' behind closed doors and I imagine he says something like 'You want this, They want that - this is how it's gonna be!'

As for Kimi leaving Ferrari and doing something else, my money is on him increasing his presence in the WRC given he seems to enjoy the danger much more than the racing in F1. He's been uninterested in F1 for 3 years if we're all brutally honest and although he probably still enjoys driving fast, his lack of performance can only lead you to conclude that he wishes to move on and basically do something else with his life.

Alonso moving to Ferrari isn't a given but it is the most likely outcome if KR leaves. I doubt Vettel will move just yet but I'm sure a move would be on the cards because most drivers dream of driving the red cars at some point in their career.

Racenut7 · 4 Jul 2009, 23:08 (Ref:2495920)

or Webber???

cmk · 5 Jul 2009, 00:47 (Ref:2495935)

Vettel seems to be cut from a much more outwardly nicer, friendlier version of the Schumacher cloth, and it would be shocking to not see him in a Ferrari at some point in his career. He's had his mid-season surprise debut at BMW, he's working up a title-contending car at Red Bull, so in 3 years or so he should jump ship to Maranello...parallels.

I just went and found some video of Kimi at his best and it gets me more invigorated to see him in a WRC car. I think that could be a fantastic show. Hopefully the new S1600 format won't be too bland.

jab · 5 Jul 2009, 20:21 (Ref:2496245)

I can't wait to see Fernando in a Ferrari. It's going to be amazing. I just hope they build a good car for him

I want to see Lewis in a Ferrari too. But that's not probably going to happen. We're not going to see Alonso, Vettel and Lewis all drive for the red team unless they go seriously downhill and they have a rotating line-up of good drivers to try their hand at revitalising them

But Kimi will go. I remain puzzled by his lack of form, because he's been poor for all bar a run of a few races in 2007 since joining Ferrari, and it just so happened that that run coincided with McLaren self-destructing (with assistance) which gifted him a lucky title, one which on balance he probably didn't deserve. So the question has to be asked as to how good he actually is - have his results been all down to the car or partly down to the driver?

I've always liked him and until recently rated him above Massa, who I have never been a fan of, but Felipe has really driven well during the last couple of season, especially in China in the wet this year. To me, looking at the last 2 1/2 years as a whole, Massa has been the better driver - he's won more races, has been quicker in qualifying, and has consistently quickly bounced back from dips in form

Last year we were told Kimi's poor performances were down to the tyres and not being able to warm them up quickly. So why is Kimi still underperforming when he now has the tyres that are supposed to suit him? The excuses have just run out. He is wasting his time in a seat that could go to a better, more willing driver, especially with Alonso stuck at a team that's going nowhere fast. If I was Stefano or whoever, I'd give him until Hungary. If he's still not driving well, I'd sack him and bring Michael in, because he'd probably do a better job even at his age after this long out. Kimi's had too many chances now

It's harsh and I know some will disagree because Kimi fans are generally loyal which is something to applaud. But he hasn't won in 22 races and has barely beaten Massa over the last year and a half. Yes, he's had a bit of bad luck, but so has Felipe, and he has still comfortably outperformed him. And this is a driver that was brought in specifically as a number 2 who everyone was expecting to be driven into the ground. Hasn't turned out that way, has it?

Peter Ford · 6 Jul 2009, 02:05 (Ref:2496344)

Why does alonso have to go to ferrari?,surely with his talent he be able to get say toyota completing with the top teams and stay there the same with bmw.what if he go to ferrari and stuggles with the car and team?.

Neil22 · 6 Jul 2009, 05:09 (Ref:2496367)

I want to see Vettel and Kimi trade teams.

Super Hans · 6 Jul 2009, 06:10 (Ref:2496384)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jab

But Kimi will go. I remain puzzled by his lack of form, because he's been poor for all bar a run of a few races in 2007 since joining Ferrari, and it just so happened that that run coincided with McLaren self-destructing (with assistance) which gifted him a lucky title, one which on balance he probably didn't deserve.

If the guy with the most points and most wins didn't deserve the title, who did?

Marbot · 6 Jul 2009, 08:09 (Ref:2496417)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Ford

Why does alonso have to go to ferrari?,surely with his talent he be able to get say toyota completing with the top teams and stay there the same with bmw.what if he go to ferrari and stuggles with the car and team?.

Alonso won for Renault not too long ago.It would be kind of ironic if he jumped ship just when they were coming good again.

If you were going to want to drive for any team at the moment though it would be RedBull.Plenty of money,good technical team and currently 'on the up'.Vettel would be a fool to go elsewhere (unless,of course,he just wants the money).Why come fifth in a Ferrari when you can be first in a RedBull ?

jab · 6 Jul 2009, 12:20 (Ref:2496536)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

If the guy with the most points and most wins didn't deserve the title, who did?

Lewis was just a mysterious electrical glitch away from the title. He didn't help himself in China but still deserved to win. When people look back on 2007 in 20 years time, the season will be remembered for him, not Kimi, and deservedly so

Super Hans · 6 Jul 2009, 12:23 (Ref:2496540)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jab

Lewis was just a mysterious electrical glitch away from the title. He didn't help himself in China but still deserved to win. When people look back on 2007 in 20 years time, the season will be remembered for him, not Kimi, and deservedly so

I'm very dubious about all this.

Over the course of a season, the driver who amasses the most points is the champion. Deserving doesn't come into it.

jab · 6 Jul 2009, 12:46 (Ref:2496562)

I can think of quite a few examples where drivers have scored less points than their team mates and yet have generally performed better, the stand-out one being at Red Bull 2 years ago when somehow DC beat Mark on points. There's still a great many debates over Prost and Senna - most people say Ayrton was better but Prost beat him in points (excluding dropped scores) in both years. A lot of people still insist Mansell was better than Piquet when they were paired up. And Hunt's title was 99.9% down to Lauda missing races with his injuries from the 'Ring crash

The championship standings aren't always an accurate measure of who were the best drivers during a season, and neither are total race wins. The 2007 season was a complete mess. McLaren were clearly disrupted by Spygate and the FIA's w***h-h**t which allowed Kimi and Ferrari to steal the title. Both Lewis and Alonso would've been deserving champions and were robbed by one thing or another - Lewis by the glitch, Alonso by the fiasco in Hungary. In any other season, Raikkonen would already have put too many feet wrong in the first half of the season to be able to challenge. Yeah, he put himself in the position to inherit, but he had a lot of assistance from outside quarters, including McLaren's FIA/Ferrari-induced troubles, reliability issues for Massa and team orders. It was a Nick Heidfeldian championship victory

HughGJohnson · 6 Jul 2009, 13:16 (Ref:2496581)

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobiesnoop

Thing is, Bernie DOESN'T have an opinion. When asked about who will win in 2007 he said Alonso then it was Raikkonen then it was Hamilton. On the will they won't they break away/FOTA/FIA bickering he said - erm well nothing really, at least nothing constructive other than they won't split. Bernie does most of his 'talking' behind closed doors and I imagine he says something like 'You want this, They want that - this is how it's gonna be!'

As for Kimi leaving Ferrari and doing something else, my money is on him increasing his presence in the WRC given he seems to enjoy the danger much more than the racing in F1. He's been uninterested in F1 for 3 years if we're all brutally honest and although he probably still enjoys driving fast, his lack of performance can only lead you to conclude that he wishes to move on and basically do something else with his life.

Alonso moving to Ferrari isn't a given but it is the most likely outcome if KR leaves. I doubt Vettel will move just yet but I'm sure a move would be on the cards because most drivers dream of driving the red cars at some point in their career.

Three opinions on one subject… like I said… Now he’s telling everyone what he thinks about politics and Hitler’s leadership skills. Clearly this is a man who says much more than necessary.

You said Alonso to Ferrari is most likely if Raikkonen leaves. Well, that’s a big if and it’s debatable whether Alonso is the most likely replacement. There’s no doubt Ferrari (and everyone else) covets Vettel. I can’t imagine Vettel would pass up Ferrari. Even you seem to think that it’s inevitable. Would Ferrari want to team Alonso with a young superstar? Something tells me that might not work very well. The more I think about it the more unlikely it seems. Vettel will also expect to be the clear number 1. So unless Ferrari chooses Alonso over Vettel or Alonso and Ferrari agree to a one year deal it doesn't seem feasible at all. And that would be if Kimi retires after this year.

jab · 6 Jul 2009, 13:37 (Ref:2496598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

Well, that’s a big if and it’s debatable whether Alonso is the most likely replacement.

I don't think there's much debate over it. I'm pretty sure the Alonso-Ferrari deal is already done the way people in the know are talking about it. They'd be silly to take Vettel over him at this stage - Fernando has the experience of winning titles, he's the best driver out there, and he doesn't make many mistakes

The debate is over who's going, not who's coming in. And given that Massa's driving too well, it's highly likely to be the demotivated, underperforming Raikkonen

Super Hans · 6 Jul 2009, 13:38 (Ref:2496600)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jab

The championship standings aren't always an accurate measure of who were the best drivers during a season, and neither are total race wins.

I agree that the championship standings can't be relied upon to show you who the best driver is. However, they're perfect for showing you who the champion is.

HughGJohnson · 6 Jul 2009, 13:52 (Ref:2496610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I'm very dubious about all this.

Over the course of a season, the driver who amasses the most points is the champion. Deserving doesn't come into it.

You're very right about deserving. If you win, you win. However, to me it would have felt better if Lewis had won. McLaren had the best car that year - and in the case of the CWC that year McLaren DID deserve to win (I should think that fine would have been punishment enough for anything short of murder). The two best drivers in the best car... one of them ought to have won. While Lewis and Fernando were taking points from eachother fighting fair, Kimi was enjoying the perks of being number 1 at Ferrari. Remeber that 'amazing' pass on Massa to take the lead?

Maybe deserving does play a role. Raikkonen won and nobody can say he wasn't WDC material - at least until '08. He certainly was due for some good luck after his McLaren days. Alonso had won twice and was a total

throughout the year. And Hamilton went on to win a title in '08.

HughGJohnson · 6 Jul 2009, 14:12 (Ref:2496628)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jab

I don't think there's much debate over it. I'm pretty sure the Alonso-Ferrari deal is already done the way people in the know are talking about it. They'd be silly to take Vettel over him at this stage - Fernando has the experience of winning titles, he's the best driver out there, and he doesn't make many mistakes

The debate is over who's going, not who's coming in. And given that Massa's driving too well, it's highly likely to be the demotivated, underperforming Raikkonen

What's the deal? Are they buying Raikkonen out? Have they made a deal for 2011 already?

Alonso has experience and is better now, but Vettel is a rising star and Alonso is quickly becoming middle-aged. Do you think Ferrari don't want Vettel? There's clearly no way they'll be teammates.

You’re right the debate is indeed on who’s leaving. I said Raikkonen – after 2010. I went on to question whether or not Alonso is really the guy coming in. I feel it’s a very valid question and certainly not off topic.

elspethhardie · 6 Jul 2009, 14:41 (Ref:2496640)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HughGJohnson

Alonso is quickly becoming middle-aged.

I object he is only a year older than me and I am most certainly not quickly becoming middle-aged

jab · 6 Jul 2009, 14:43 (Ref:2496643)

I guess to keep Raikkonen's Ferrari contract alive, he'll be moved into another area of Fiat's motorsport arm, i.e. the rally team

And it's not that I don't think Ferrari want Vettel. But quite clearly they want Alonso (who isn't middle-aged - he's 27) more, and they're not going to hire both of them. Vettel would be best advised to stay put for now for a couple of years, like Michael did, and then take the big money offer. And I should think that's what he'll probably do. I don't see him at Ferrari any time soon

Taprobane · 6 Jul 2009, 14:44 (Ref:2496644)

Agreed.

You could easily make the argument that Kimi was robbed in 05 because of his car but it doesn't matter because at the end of the day Fernando got the points so hes the champ.

jab · 6 Jul 2009, 14:47 (Ref:2496646)

There's a difference between 2005, where the McLaren (or specifically the Merc engine) broke regularly, and 2007, where Lewis had 1 technical issue all year, which just happened to appear in the last round of the championship and was a complete mystery to the team

Also Kimi had by far the quickest car in 2005. The 07 McLaren wasn't that superior, and there were races where it was inferior

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