Entry Levels at Historic Race Meetings

[Willmaz223]

As a commentator at Brands recently for the historics queried where have all the E Types gone?

Good number of them are still raced although not very often and tend to stick to the Jaguar Challenge where they are obviously competitive.

[Gerard C]

Just hope that the LMC live streaming will work (at last!) and can watch the Challenge in the Mulsanne straight. May be I know one or two french drivers entering this support grid…

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by 356sc

Completely agree with this Zeff!

Appreciate that the Peter Auto events are at the “top end” of racing events so is likely to attract wealthier folk, but looking at the 60s series, there used to be a number of cars that were raced, prepared and supported by the owner/driver plus family..…I think we are now the last of these.



The whole set up is now much more professional with the main focus being on trying to win, hence why cobras, Daytona coupe (copies), e types and lotus 26r are now the predominant cars on the grid… as a consequence amateur enthusiasts who race historic cars just for the hell of it with no chance ever of winning (why else would we try to make a 356 go stupidly fast?!) are being squeezed out.

Does make it a hell of a lot more satisfying when you get a good result though!!

Amen to that. I had a few years being competitive in TC 63 against the Jags etc, but I was murdering the car mechanically to do it, needed a major service after every race. . . .When I learnt the latest TC engined Cortinas have a gearbox every race and an engine lasts 4 hours my heart sank. . BoT that has to be a deterrant to the majority.

PA meeting at Spa in May/June is great, night racing, snow, what more could you ask for

[Peter Mallett]

We've discussed the professionalisation of historics previously and I agree, it has made the whole thing a great spectacle but at the expense of the club racer. It occurs to me that the possible alternative as an amateur is to abandon App K and return to club determined regs which may allow lower costs.

That would then preclude events such as the Spa 6hrs, Goodwood (special anyway), Silverstone Classic etc. but would probably benefit clubs such as the MGCC, CTCRC and the like who would gain a number of drivers.

Zef mentioned the additional hassle of traveling to europe and I recall John R saying similar in the Le Mans Classic thread. Agreed, if you are transporting a number of non registered vehicles (or road registered but not yours) then carnets etc. need to be procured. But as an individual when transporting your own vehicle there is no additional effort required. That said, next year we will have to apply for a Schengen Visa before entering Europe.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

That said, next year we will have to apply for a Schengen Visa before entering Europe.

Aren't UK citizens going to be part of ETIAS, and so still not requiring a visa?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Aren't UK citizens going to be part of ETIAS, and so still not requiring a visa?

The UK citizens will be ones from 60 countries that will be required to apply for an ETIAS Visa Waiver online when the system goes live from next year. https://www.etias.info/

It will be yet another bit of hassle that has to be done.

[Plantagenet]

HSCC racer here. Although we have had good grids at the start of the year, there were smaller grids at Cadwell as highlighted in the OP.
There is no doubt that the professionalism of the historic paddock is having an effect. In formula ford, many of the front runners are changing tyres nearly every race and many test on friday, which is not really an option for those with busy jobs. In addition, i have noted the creep in costs - Donnington over £500 as is Oulton. I personally think only Brands GP and Silverstone GP justify that level of money in the UK. If you add all that up, you are looking at well north of £1k per weekend for top cars in what is considered a cheaper series.
I don't offer any real solutions - although I do think a tyre limit over the season of 2 sets could be a sensible way forward. We just need to be accepting that at these level of costs, we are not going to be seeing much of a socially diverse group of younger drivers joining the series (writes a white middle class male....!!)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The UK citizens will be ones from 60 countries that will be required to apply for an ETIAS Visa Waiver online when the system goes live from next year. https://www.etias.info/

It will be yet another bit of hassle that has to be done.

No hassle, just stick your details on the website. Not sure of the cost yet. But it gives us 90days just like we always had unless we were working and/or paying local tax.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

No hassle, just stick your details on the website. Not sure of the cost yet. But it gives us 90days just like we always had unless we were working and/or paying local tax.

I appreciate that, Peter, but it is yet another thing that has to be done that one didn't have to do 3 years ago.

About the escalating costs for current drivers, whether that be for historics or modern machinery, it appears to me that it has all turned far too professional as compared to how it used to be. I would say that at least 75% of grids from years ago were built and prepared by enthusiast drivers, often with help from unpaid from friends and families, whilst today I would say that 75% of cars, at least, are built and prepared by commercial enterprises.

As for tyres, most of us used to make do with scrubbed rubber that we scrounge from wherever we could obtain them (mine were ex Indy Firestones) and, if we were extremely flush we might change them for the new season.

I've mentioned this before, but James Hunt started his F3 career by sleeping in his Mini van overnight in race paddocks hoping to secure a drive the next day by bartering spannering for a race. I would often see him appearing bleary eyed climbing out of the back of the van when we arrived to sign on.

[Peter Mallett]

Just received a mail from MSVR, they run an allcomers series. The entry fee for the next race at Snetterton is £3?0. Admittedly you have slicks and wings GT3 and 4, touring cars and Caterhams. But you do get to race.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

If you add all that up, you are looking at well north of £1k per weekend for top cars in what is considered a cheaper series.

I don't offer any real solutions - although I do think a tyre limit over the season of 2 sets could be a sensible way forward.

Well.....that sounds familiar..... although the ££ figures are a bit light compared to even club level karting. .

2 sets of tyres for the season is great. Our kart drivers often use two for the weekend, one new for test day and one new for race day because they barely last a full day. At £170 per set. And you can imagine the difficulty in getting rid of them!

If the MSUK is serious about "going green" it should put an immediate tyre limit across all forms of motorsport in place, and it's up to the championships to find tyres that will last. It will slash costs and make those on a smaller budget competitive again. It's easily policed through a timing system called Alpha which also has a tyre bar code scanner built in and the championships as well as MSUK can monitor it. This will massively reduce waste and costs at a stroke.

Otherwise the demise in Historic grids is symptomatic of racing at all levels: the younger generation do not have the skills or facilities for even basic race car building. Very few modern houses have off road parking let alone a garage to double as race workshop, so running with a team becomes vital. And there's fewer people around that have learned any basic maintenance at school - even using a spanner let alone advanced engineering equipment like lump hammers!

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[zefarelly]

I've just bought my first set of Portuguese tyres, have been stringing out old and second hand English ones for the last 7 years!!

May be losing a second or 2 here and there, but I'm sideways having fun

[Brynmor]

Interesting thread this and it’s magnifying where I’m currently at. I’ve a really nice Mk1 Mini built to a clubman spec, bolt in cage etc, very much as clubman minis in Historics were up to even 12-15 years ago, however what I do lack is the budget for a £25k Swiftune type engine plus all the high end running costs.

So it sits there doing nothing. Last year as Minis are my thing I did some Mighty Mini racing which I’d venture is closer to racing as was in the 60/70’s than most series now. They also run control Tyres which last and last and last.

It’s a real shame that in historics the accepted specification now seems to be the highest end of what’s achievable and not something more pared back, in a dare I say more sustainable (financially) for future of historics way.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Brynmor

Interesting thread this and it’s magnifying where I’m currently at. I’ve a really nice Mk1 Mini built to a clubman spec, bolt in cage etc, very much as clubman minis in Historics were up to even 12-15 years ago, however what I do lack is the budget for a £25k Swiftune type engine plus all the high end running costs.

So it sits there doing nothing. Last year as Minis are my thing I did some Mighty Mini racing which I’d venture is closer to racing as was in the 60/70’s than most series now. They also run control Tyres which last and last and last.

It’s a real shame that in historics the accepted specification now seems to be the highest end of what’s achievable and not something more pared back, in a dare I say more sustainable (financially) for future of historics way.

There were two minis (near identical) at the Goodwood track day in March. . one was flashing its lights having its neck wrung in a bid to get by me, so I let it go, it was a track day, not a test day. I had a quick look in the paddock. both brand new cars. everything, shell included.

Tells you everything you need to know.

[The Fat Clerk]

If the MSUK is serious about "going green" it should put an immediate tyre limit across all forms of motorsport in place, and it's up to the championships to find tyres that will last. It will slash costs and make those on a smaller budget competitive again. It's easily policed through a timing system called Alpha which also has a tyre bar code scanner built in and the championships as well as MSUK can monitor it. This will massively reduce waste and costs at a stroke.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

That is the most sensible suggestion I've read in a very long time.

[Derwent]

There are too many series and too many of those are being run commercially. The Equipe series has grown tremendously since they went commercial. I used to do Equipe GTS when Jim and Christophe ran the series as a not for profit series. When they sold the current owners did a lot of promotion, employed staff, have a hospitality unit and have introduced three or four more races. They usually buy grids from other clubs. I can no longer afford to do GTS and I think the folk who are doing it are very different from those ten years ago. As mentioned before professionally prepared cars being brought on an arrive and drive basis. No longer coming on trailer behind the family car. Genuine clubs like MGCC have certainly taken a hit from Equipe.
it's a bit like historic endurance rallying, the folk who do HERO and other similar events are completely different from the enthusiasts who do HRCR and NESCRO type events at a fraction of the cost. The number of professionally run historic rallies is increasing all the time as there seems to be a huge demand from folk with the time and money to do them.

[Anyopenroad]

When we went to Goodwood Revival a few years ago I tried to explain the concept of a brand new historic car to my wife and realised as I listened to my own words how dumb that sounds.

Presumably the young people with spanners are now tweaking and racing more modern cars, not 50-60yr old cars they only recognise from grimy old family photos. There is certainly a vibrant tuning and track day scene. Historics have become a place for wealthy older folks to drive the cars of their youth or near-youth, with a hint of glamour that you don’t get from a 1990s BMW.

[Brynmor]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

If the MSUK is serious about "going green" it should put an immediate tyre limit across all forms of motorsport in place, and it's up to the championships to find tyres that will last. It will slash costs and make those on a smaller budget competitive again. It's easily policed through a timing system called Alpha which also has a tyre bar code scanner built in and the championships as well as MSUK can monitor it. This will massively reduce waste and costs at a stroke.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

That is the most sensible suggestion I've read in a very long time.[/QUOTE]

There’s actually a proposal for exactly that currently doing the rounds in Forest Rallying

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Brynmor

That is the most sensible suggestion I've read in a very long time.

There’s actually a proposal for exactly that currently doing the rounds in Forest Rallying[/QUOTE]

Shouldn't have my name on the top, it was Bauble who said the sensible thing, I was just agreeing.

[coppice]

Originally Posted by Brynmor

That is the most sensible suggestion I've read in a very long time.

I totally agree - and I'd start with F1 , if perhaps allowing a set a race . Tyres which wear out in minutes are absurd, wasteful and an awful advert for Pirelli . As some will recall, Jim Clark even won several Grands Prix on the same set.

At club Historic level it's a no brainer although I am sure someone , perhaps a tyre supplier, will tell me I am talking out of my ****.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Shouldn't have my name on the top, it was Bauble who said the sensible thing, I was just agreeing.

Actually I do think that it was Max using his experiences on the karting scene.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Actually I do think that it was Max using his experiences on the karting scene.

It was. Tyre restrictions are getting more popular these days, except for MSUK meetings.

Tyres are the bane of karting. Classes are structured by engine manufacturers and there is an arms race to be the fastest class, purely based on ever softer tyres. If you do a 10 round club series your tyre bill will be over £2000 including wets, and that's only racing once per month. Add the same again for every championship you enter.

Hence the rise of series outside MSUK that limit the number of tyres used. They're hugely popular and well run. Harder tyres don't throw the pollution into the air either.

The MSUK is about to lose karting, it won't be long before the first cracks arrive in car racing either. And it's all due to costs and the biggest cost is tyres.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Alan Morgan]

In Historic FF2000, I limited the maximum number of sets of tyres per season to 3 a few years ago. BMTR, who supply our tyres, are quite happy with the arrangement as it actually results in them selling more tyres as people realise it's a more level playing field and that they're not being outdone by someone with a bigger chequebook.

[Duddha]

Speaking from a European point of view, the cake is only that big and yet everyone is now craving for its own historic festival but you can only divide that cake in as many slices as possible, they get thinner as demand grows and that works the other way around. Big operations may send customers and care on double duties over a single weekend but you can't have clubbies racing one side of the country and another the same weekend and so on.

There use to be different levels of historic racing a long time ago, I grew up between the two as my parents would attend club events and the big ones such as the Coys Festival, Grand Prix de l'Age d'Or or Oldtimer Grand Prix but there was an understanding in terms of calendar too, you wouldn't stage all those on back to back weekends, the club events would be in-between and grids would visit big and smaller events in order to ensure healthy grids.

Now it looks like season starts in March and ends in November without a real break, big events from the start and club ones on the same weekends, nobody can cover or recover financially in-between or along the whole season unless you are a different league and yet nobody seems to care. Oh and before I forget, if people were also to take it a little less seriously, it would maybe be more sustainable to everyone.

[Belmondo]

HSCC Donington entries are now up on their website, and look reasonably healthy.