Are FORD leaving V8 supertaxi's??

[Robert Ryan]

Most Australians know that V8SC bear little relevance to the showroom cars. Is it any wonder Toyota are killing em both in overall sales?

logically two very different issues, one is to do with the price of petrol and another is a racing series.Toyota Corolla is the 2nd biggest seller in Australia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[bentate]

Once again we have Ford demonstrating their luke warm support of racing in this country. Unfortunately for their fans they have a very sad history of jumping in and out of the sport when ever it suits them.

Good luck selling FPV's with no racing support to back them up. HSV will have a field day.

If true, it is yet another knee jerk, short sighted reaction by the blue oval.

Oh well, get your 'Focus forever' banners ready Ford fans....

[Chris - Melb]

The combined Australian sales of the Toyota Aurion and the perceived [if maybe not in reality] fuel efficient Toyota Camry is still substantially less than Commodore sales, alone. And only slightly more than the combined Falcon and Territory sales.

Toyota are getting their sales volume from their smaller cars that are simply not economic to produce in Australia.

So Holden's local production output is more relevant to the Australian market than Toyota's is, as things stand at the moment.

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Most Australians know that V8SC bear little relevance to the showroom cars. Is it any wonder Toyota are killing em both in overall sales? .

When you consider the combined sales of Falcon sedan/Ute and Territory and combine it with rumored major developments for Ford Australia in the left hand drive markets, the future seems far more rosy than it currently appears on the surface.

I know Ford bashing is becoming a hobby for some people , but remember that at the end of the day, Ford's predicament is not a lot different to Holden's.

BOTH Holden and Ford want to be spending less money on motor racing than they currently are . Cuts are inevitable, but it does not mean the world as we know it is immediately ending.

[Pro Racer]

i can see cut back but just can't see them pulling out (despite their previous efforts stated above).

[stmorri]

A) Why would you want to use success ballast for anything, isn't the deal artificially contrived enough already?

B) Why would the series want to keep a car competitive from a manufacturer that wasn't interested in supporting the series?[/QUOTE]

A) Because it is only a 2 car series and if 1 manufacturer pulls out then the low budget teams will need assistance if they are to remain competitive.

B) Because there is no point in having a series that solely consists of Commodores and VESA wouldn't want to lose the support from the Ford supporters at the track......they pay at the gate.

[GTRMagic]

In Mr Mckay's article in the SMH Here... there are some interesting statements....

Originally Posted by End of the road for Ford? - Peter McKay - SMH Online - 130507

Ford is supporting a two-car Fiesta squad in the Australian Rally Championship, though this campaign is largely self-funded.

The interesting information here... is that it has been assumed that Britek picked up this massive new "works" contract to run the Fiesta (like GRM won when they prepared the Monaro for the B24 for Holden) when in reality, according to this statement, Ford's contribution isnt as much as you may have expected....

Does that suggest that if you can buy a Ford sticker, and put it on your race (rally?) car, then you can tell the world that you are "factory" supported??

[bentate]

Originally Posted by Chris - Melb

The combined Australian sales of the Toyota Aurion and the perceived [if maybe not in reality] fuel efficient Toyota Camry is still substantially less than Commodore sales, alone. And only slightly more than the combined Falcon and Territory sales.

Toyota are getting their sales volume from their smaller cars that are simply not economic to produce in Australia.

So Holden's local production output is more relevant to the Australian market than Toyota's is, as things stand at the moment.



When you consider the combined sales of Falcon sedan/Ute and Territory and combine it with rumored major developments for Ford Australia in the left hand drive markets, the future seems far more rosy than it currently appears on the surface.

I know Ford bashing is becoming a hobby for some people , but remember that at the end of the day, Ford's predicament is not a lot different to Holden's.

BOTH Holden and Ford want to be spending less money on motor racing than they currently are . Cuts are inevitable, but it does not mean the world as we know it is immediately ending.

Wait a second. Ford are spending way less on the Orion than Holden did on the VE. The Orion is basically a reskin of the BA which in itslef was an update of the 98' AU. Holden have a significant and expanding export business for VE based vehicles along with responsibility to engineer and develop the new Camaro and have a thriving export engine business.

Ford have zero export dessl for current Falcon or Territory (they can't be made in left hand drive) and as yet nothing for the Orion, no other significant component exports and no obvious supporters in Ford US for their local product.

In a similar position to Holden? I think that's drawing a very long bow my friend....

[Chris - Melb]

Well, the Commodore had a lot of catching up to do to match the Falcon dynamics . Little wonder that Holden had to spend more. Ford did a lot of their spending on the BA remember.

To say Ford has nothing in the pipeline as far as exports is concerned is rather presumptuous. Whether that be actual built-up cars or other . Have you not seen the stories in motoring magazines around the world ? Reported sightings of the left hand drive prototype Falcons in Melbourne?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Chris - Melb

Well, the Commodore had a lot of catching up to do to match the Falcon dynamics . Little wonder that Holden had to spend more. Ford did a lot of their spending on the BA remember.

To say Ford has nothing in the pipeline as far as exports is concerned is rather presumptuous. Whether that be actual built-up cars or other . Have you not seen the stories in motoring magazines around the world ? Reported sightings of the left hand drive prototype Falcons in Melbourne?

Threr have been reports of LHD Falcons and Holdens for decades, but to date the export sales have been respectively negligible/disappointing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Threr have been reports of LHD Falcons and Holdens for decades, but to date the export sales have been respectively negligible/disappointing.

I'd disagree. The case of the Pontiac GTO is a good starting point. It allowed Holden to sell Monaros way in excess of what ever could have been sold in Australia. And it keep the car going in production due to upgrades courtesy of continued development for Pontiac.

Right now in the USA Ford needs a new rear wheel drive sedan. The crown victoria has been little updated since 1990. Cop and taxi fleets need a new vehicle. If Ford is going to go to the trouble of developing the Orion, then why not sell it here(usa) and use the economies of scale?

[bentate]

Originally Posted by Chris - Melb

Well, the Commodore had a lot of catching up to do to match the Falcon dynamics . Little wonder that Holden had to spend more. Ford did a lot of their spending on the BA remember.

To say Ford has nothing in the pipeline as far as exports is concerned is rather presumptuous. Whether that be actual built-up cars or other . Have you not seen the stories in motoring magazines around the world ? Reported sightings of the left hand drive prototype Falcons in Melbourne?

Designing for left hand drive is a no brainer and doesn't mean Ford have any export plans in place. If they didn't design the Orion for potential left hand drive sales it would be commercial suicide, so I'm sure there's a few left hook prototypes doing the rounds. If they had an export deal, given their current state of woe, why wouldn't they have announced it from the rooftops?

The VT/Z Commodore may have had an old IRS design but apart from that I'd be interested in where else it needed a lot of catching up. The BA/F uses a development of the front drive Mondeo rear suspension and the upper and lower wishbone design front suspension is a modified carry over of the AU which was a development of the short / long arm spindle front end from the EA!

The floorpan (at least from the firewall back) and therefore the bulk of the underside of teh car will be little changed from the BA. The VE was more than simply a new body on old underpinnings (as the Orion will be). It is an entirerly new architecture and involves a a fundamentally brand new build process and ability to stretch or shorten the basic design as demand warrants. Ford are doing what is commonly called 're skinning'. they take an old model, put a new body and interior on it and hey presto, you have a brand new car!

With Terrotroy front suspension, modified Mondeo rear suspension and a basic floorpan that is already up to 9 years old in parts.

Add to this Ford's retention of basically the same six and eight motors and you have a car that can't help but struggle against the VE before it even turns a wheel out of a showroom.

The FPV models will be restricted by the top heavy Boss motors and the Mondeo rear end can't hope to cope with the well over 300kw's that FPV will need to stay in touch with HSV (who's revised series two E series is rumoured to offer 320kw's as standard and a 337kw upgrade for GTS around Walkinshaw performance tuning already available on the current model).

Not that the already streesed BOSS engines will reliably deliver much above 300 kw's anyway, which leaves the Turbo six as the most likley source of higher outputs. But that then leaves Ford in a dilemma with their hot sixes out performing their V8's (which they do in reality already).

Then you can always go for a 380kw Walkinshaw HSV. Fully factory backed and available through Holden and HSV dealers as we speak.

So the much hyped 40th anniversary GTHO might be outgunned by it's bread and butter F6 brother.

Sorry, but I see very few things to get excited about as a Ford fan. My suggestion is that you hurry out and buy a FPV Orion model early and stick it in the garage. It may be the last of it's kind.

Which in itself is a sad thought even as a Holden fan....

[billy bigtime]

Originally Posted by bentate

Designing for left hand drive is a no brainer and doesn't mean Ford have any export plans in place. If they didn't design the Orion for potential left hand drive sales it would be commercial suicide, so I'm sure there's a few left hook prototypes doing the rounds. If they had an export deal, given their current state of woe, why wouldn't they have announced it from the rooftops?

The VT/Z Commodore may have had an old IRS design but apart from that I'd be interested in where else it needed a lot of catching up. The BA/F uses a development of the front drive Mondeo rear suspension and the upper and lower wishbone design front suspension is a modified carry over of the AU which was a development of the short / long arm spindle front end from the EA!

The floorpan (at least from the firewall back) and therefore the bulk of the underside of teh car will be little changed from the BA. The VE was more than simply a new body on old underpinnings (as the Orion will be). It is an entirerly new architecture and involves a a fundamentally brand new build process and ability to stretch or shorten the basic design as demand warrants. Ford are doing what is commonly called 're skinning'. they take an old model, put a new body and interior on it and hey presto, you have a brand new car!

With Terrotroy front suspension, modified Mondeo rear suspension and a basic floorpan that is already up to 9 years old in parts.

Add to this Ford's retention of basically the same six and eight motors and you have a car that can't help but struggle against the VE before it even turns a wheel out of a showroom.

The FPV models will be restricted by the top heavy Boss motors and the Mondeo rear end can't hope to cope with the well over 300kw's that FPV will need to stay in touch with HSV (who's revised series two E series is rumoured to offer 320kw's as standard and a 337kw upgrade for GTS around Walkinshaw performance tuning already available on the current model).

Not that the already streesed BOSS engines will reliably deliver much above 300 kw's anyway, which leaves the Turbo six as the most likley source of higher outputs. But that then leaves Ford in a dilemma with their hot sixes out performing their V8's (which they do in reality already).

Then you can always go for a 380kw Walkinshaw HSV. Fully factory backed and available through Holden and HSV dealers as we speak.

So the much hyped 40th anniversary GTHO might be outgunned by it's bread and butter F6 brother.

Sorry, but I see very few things to get excited about as a Ford fan. My suggestion is that you hurry out and buy a FPV Orion model early and stick it in the garage. It may be the last of it's kind.

Which in itself is a sad thought even as a Holden fan....

[dsg]

That has more spin than a ferris wheel.

[SSbaby]

I'm not Ford bashing but having read the article in the SMH, I don't know if Gorman was misquoted or he is implying that the high cost of fuel is really making V8SC seem irrelevant (to Ford) in the current climate.

Surely not? Not when Holden V8 sales have never been stronger!

I agree with some here that V8Supercar entertainment has nothing at all to do with the issue of V8 sales due to high fuel prices. V8SC is about entertainment. Even some Toyota owners follow the sport. What I was alluding to in my earlier post was that I don't blame Ford if they decide to pull out as it's clearly a business decision, irrespective of how successfully/unsuccessfully people believe the company is traveling.

If cost containment is the other issue then it has to be asked why are Ford paying their drivers so much?

[bentate]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I'm not Ford bashing but having read the article in the SMH, I don't know if Gorman was misquoted or he is implying that the high cost of fuel is really making V8SC seem irrelevant (to Ford) in the current climate.

Surely not? Not when Holden V8 sales have never been stronger!

I agree with some here that V8Supercar entertainment has nothing at all to do with the issue of V8 sales due to high fuel prices. V8SC is about entertainment. Even some Toyota owners follow the sport. What I was alluding to in my earlier post was that I don't blame Ford if they decide to pull out as it's clearly a business decision, irrespective of how successfully/unsuccessfully people believe the company is traveling.

If cost containment is the other issue then it has to be asked why are Ford paying their drivers so much?

Relative to the billions invested in design, engineering and manufacturing expenditure, the few million that Ford spend on V8's against the value it represents to it's brand and the hours of TV exposure it gets, I would have thought that it was a relatively small cost against it's return?

Let us also not forget that it was Ford that began the ridiculous escalation in driver salaries that is now costing it millions. And that escalation occured because of Ford's lack of investment in the local sport for so many years and need to buy experienced guys quickly to get up to speed and be competitive against Holden.

In other words, Ford created the shortfall in local driver talent by not supporting the sport for so many years that it had to pay through the nose to get the experience that it didn't have and now is suffering for it. Had they stayed in local motorsport and not flip flopped through the 70's and 80's, they may not have found themselves writing such big cheques today.

Ford have spent many tens of millions building up their brand after walking away from their passionate fans in the 80's and handing the local performance and V8 market to Holden. Generations of kids grew up with nothing but performance Holdens and their efforts on the racetrack on the TV.

Dads and their sons were cheering Larry around Bathurst and watching Brocky hand it to the Sierras and BMW's on a slippery mountain. All the while Falcon drivers had to settle for a dubious and paper thin link between them and the privately imported and run Ford Sierra.

Finally Ford brought the V8 back and put a Falcon back on the race track against it's arch rival and painstakingly and at great expense rebuilt a shattered fan base with increasing success on the track and on the road. Finally it erupted into a golden age of triple touring car crowns and Lowndes finally and triumphantly holding the prestigious Peter Brock trophy over his head at Bathurst last year in a see of emotion and fan pride.

Now at the first sign of trouble, Ford forget their fans, turn their backs on the passion and in a carefully worded interview prepare to walk away from their passionate, long suffering and incredibly loyal fans ....again....

I tip my hat to Ford fans in all honesty. you have a passion and commitment to a brand that clearly is not felt in return.

I hope Gorman pulls his head out of his arse and looks beyond the spreadsheets and out into the see of flags and faces and the eyes and hearts of the dads that once again can feel proud to take their sones to the car racing and wear their Ford colours with honour and pride.

This is your heartland Ford, walk away from it again at your own peril......

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Also you would see rapidly the death of Australian roadracing. Speedway and Drag Racing would takeover as the major categories here. 2 litre series are far from successful in Europe, FIA GT, and Singleseater categories tend to outrank them. See how many people watch the BTCC?

The BTCC has actually been getting good crowds this year, especially at Rockingham a few weeks ago. Single Seater racing is no doubt the main thing in Europe, but the likes of FIA GT and Sportscar racing in general (outside the Le Mans 24 Hours) attracts two men and a dog to the majority of their races. The FIA GT Championship for instance has struggled since it left the Eurosport/WTCC Super Racing Weekend package at the end of 2005.

Whatever the formula of car raced in Australia the main ingrediants required are the main drivers and teams to compete so the fans/media know who they are watching, anything else is just secondary.

[billy bigtime]

Gee, I hope it doesn't happen for the sake of licence holders, especially the ones that owe millions and millions of dollars. They could find themselves bankrupt very quickly.

[bentate]

Originally Posted by racer69

The BTCC has actually been getting good crowds this year, especially at Rockingham a few weeks ago. Single Seater racing is no doubt the main thing in Europe, but the likes of FIA GT and Sportscar racing in general (outside the Le Mans 24 Hours) attracts two men and a dog to the majority of their races. The FIA GT Championship for instance has struggled since it left the Eurosport/WTCC Super Racing Weekend package at the end of 2005.

Whatever the formula of car raced in Australia the main ingrediants required are the main drivers and teams to compete so the fans/media know who they are watching, anything else is just secondary.

Europe has the advantage of hundreds of millions of people, some massive economies and is the home of formula racing.

Australia has been about touring cars in some form for close to 50 years.

I'd guess that Cochrane and the boys at VESA will have a 'plan B' if they can't firstly negotiate a continued Ford involvement.

With Toyota's leap into NASCAR in the US with a pushrod carbie fed 'Camry' of all things and Chrysler's growing market penetration in Australia there will always be options.

If Ford did walk away from V8's the supporter backlash and bad press would surely have a significant impact on the Falcon's sales success and their own XR performance models and those from FPV, which are always the most profitable.

I'd suggest pulling out of local V8's would just about sign Ford's local manufacturing death warrant.

I hope Gorman truly appreciates the impact such a decision would have on Ford locally.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bentate

I hope Gorman pulls his head out of his arse and looks beyond the spreadsheets and out into the see of flags and faces and the eyes and hearts of the dads that once again can feel proud to take their sones to the car racing and wear their Ford colours with honour and pride.

In reality what is more important, the bottom line figures of Ford or Dads that feel they can only look their sons in the eye when a Ford is competing.

Also bentate, Gorman said Ford would always be involved in Motorsport in Australia, only that it needs to be relevant to what they are selling.

[Robert Ryan]

I'd guess that Cochrane and the boys at VESA will have a 'plan B' if they can't firstly negotiate a continued Ford involvement.

With Toyota's leap into NASCAR in the US with a pushrod carbie fed 'Camry' of all things and Chrysler's growing market penetration in Australia there will always be options.

Worse case scenario , they will go down the "silouhette" road, as other overseas have done. We are already halfway in that process. The "Silouhette" car can be reskinned much more easily than the current ones.

[bentate]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

In reality what is more important, the bottom line figures of Ford or Dads that feel they can only look their sons in the eye when a Ford is competing.

Also bentate, Gorman said Ford would always be involved in Motorsport in Australia, only that it needs to be relevant to what they are selling.

Spoken like a true bean counter.

You should apply for a job at Ford, or are you really Gorman in disguise???

[Raglanparade]

Whos to say that Ford cant make a Silouhette Focus or Mondeo into a v8 supercar... afterall, the cars are project blueprint.. not based on a model.

you could have a Aurion, Camry, 380, Mondeo, Focus Sedan, Hyundai, Chrysler ... etc under the project blueprint formula, and it would work.

You change the dimensions of a Mondeo or a Focus, and suddenly you have a Focus looking V8 supercar.

How many cars in the Australian market at the moment could easily be morphed into a v8 supercar... (im thinking about 15 off the top of my head).

Nothing under project blueprint says that the car has to be based on teh Falcon ???

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bentate

Spoken like a true bean counter.

You should apply for a job at Ford, or are you really Gorman in disguise???

You dont see the need for Ford to be concerned about its finances. What will Ford use to fund future motorsport programs if they lose it all now ?

[GTRMagic]

[mod]This is fun and stuff but is there a discussion about motorsport anywhere in there[/mod]

Thread closed