[LM24 Race] Le Mans 2012 entries .

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It was discussed in the Speed TV chat last night.

You say big teams will be allowed four....

Is what was discussed in 'chat' on Speed gospel then?

(I'm not saying it isn't - I just find it difficult to believe!)

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You say big teams will be allowed four....

Is what was discussed in 'chat' on Speed gospel then?

(I'm not saying it isn't - I just find it difficult to believe!)

Feel free to contact John Dagys of Speed TV, I'm just passing on what was discussed.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You say big teams will be allowed four....

Is what was discussed in 'chat' on Speed gospel then?

(I'm not saying it isn't - I just find it difficult to believe!)

If there are four Audi's on the grid it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be run by the same team. Peugeot has had four cars thanks to the customer ORECA in recent years.

[The Badger]

If the field had only 2 class's , I wouldnt have issue with that . But the places are limited enough without adding a 4th entry .

Trying to understand the logic behind this move ?

[FstrthnU]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...o-lm24-return/
Muscle Milk/Pickett says they're considering taking up their auto entry with their new HPD-ARX-03a.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...o-lm24-return/
Muscle Milk/Pickett says they're considering taking up their auto entry with their new HPD-ARX-03a.

If Pickett truly wants to go back then 2012 is the year while the works boys are still trying to fettle their hybrid systems. With Dyson also hopefully making the trip I don't think it would impact their ALMS programme negatively unless they write off a tub.

[lms]

Originally Posted by The Badger

If the field had only 2 class's , I wouldnt have issue with that . But the places are limited enough without adding a 4th entry

that. The ACO should enforce that "two car for each factory effort" (or whatever) rule. 2-2 factory diesels should be enough, I would rather see some diversity than seeing a couple diesels crash into gt cars. But seeing those r18 accidents this year, maybe audi will try to put as many r18s on the grid as possible, so if they crash a couple of those there will be a few left still
Or maybe it wouldnt be such a big deal to have a 56 car field of peugeots and audis? So there wont be any slow moving obstacles on the track. (okay maybe deltawing should run also) Watching the eurosport coverage of le mans one would think if there are any cars on the track other than peugeot and audi.

[gwyllion]

I do not understand the commotion about Audi's alleged to enter four cars in Le Mans. The last three years (2009-2011) there were also four Peugeots (3 factory + 1 Oreca/Pescarolo). I do not mind more factory cars race for the overall victory, instead of seeing more LMP2 cars that do not finish because of reliability issues.

Furthermore, GTE there are always a large number of Porsches and Ferraris as well. Should the ACO also enforce 3 cars per brand in GTE?

[JAG]

Le Mans history is filled with multi-car teams, in most cases if more than three cars where run, two factory squads combined, i.e TWR Jaguar's WSC and IMSA teams, or favoured customers help, i.e Peugeot Sport and ORECA.

If you enforced a two car limit, in 2011 the might of Audi and Peugeot would have run just four cars, combined, in a fifty six car grid, this is one instance were the historical prescendence is far more appealing.

[Aysedasi]

I guess so.

Do I take it then that nothing else needs to be read or heard these days on the subject of sports cars - Dagys knows all?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Le Mans history is filled with multi-car teams, in most cases if more than three cars where run, two factory squads combined, i.e TWR Jaguar's WSC and IMSA teams, or favoured customers help, i.e Peugeot Sport and ORECA.

If you enforced a two car limit, in 2011 the might of Audi and Peugeot would have run just four cars, combined, in a fifty six car grid, this is one instance were the historical prescendence is far more appealing.

Huh? The class and selection structure was significantly different back in the era of TWR Jags everywhere than it is today. Apples and oranges.

I can understand why some would want to see as many R18s and 908s as possible. They're potential overall winning cars. Some think that P1 is all that matters so more of them at the expense of other classes is fine. Obviously, that's not everyone's opinion. Also, Audi and Peugeot are WEC supporters so getting their cars in may take precedence over getting in ELMS, ALMS, and non-affiliated entries.

Perhaps the ACO should just eliminate the notion that all classes are equal and make it clear that Le Mans is a P1 race with other classes invited to fill up the remaining grid spots. I guess there are a lot of other things the ACO can do (bring back Pre-Qing, eliminate LM auto-entries for WEC teams, remove LM from the WEC schedule, etc.) to justify the current situation, but I don't know. The ACO seems to be running under multiple ideologies that aren't really compatible with one another.

Getting rid of the DeltaWang would definitely help too.

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Do I take it then that nothing else needs to be read or heard these days on the subject of sports cars - Dagys knows all?

Is there any particular reason for this question?

[gwyllion]

@AGD: I think that a lot of people agree that the GTE Am class is not that exciting to watch and in LMP2 the car with the least technical issues still wins.

A (perhaps useful) statistic from the 2011 LM24 is the difference in laps between the 1st and 3rd car of every class:

• LMP1: 355 - 353 = 2 laps
• LMP2: 326 - 319 = 7 laps
• GTE Pro: 314 - 313 = 1 lap
• GTE Am: 302 - 285 = 17 laps

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

@AGD: I think that a lot of people agree that the GTE Am class is not that exciting to watch and in LMP2 the car with the least technical issues still wins.

A (perhaps useful) statistic from the 2011 LM24 is the difference in laps between the 1st and 3rd car of every class:

• LMP1: 355 - 353 = 2 laps
• LMP2: 326 - 319 = 7 laps
• GTE Pro: 314 - 313 = 1 lap
• GTE Am: 302 - 285 = 17 laps

I don't think many will cry if the GTE-Am grid is cut short in order for there to be more competitive P1 cars, but can you really have a GTE-Am class and not allow it to have sufficient car count? I guess that's the problem. It's definitely an issue with P2 because there are a lot of P2 teams who want or will get an entry.

Perhaps there should be an unbalanced class car count, but I don't know how to do it.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AGD

I don't think many will cry if the GTE-Am grid is cut short in order for there to be more competitive P1 cars,it.

I would . Why penalise the little fella ?

2 factory cars per team ..... nuf said .

[Le Vieux]

I'm a little surprised at the short memories of what are generally knowledgeable contributors to this forum.

We're not talking apples and oranges: we're talking satsumas and clementines. There may have been some changes, but we're still talking the premier class of the world's premier motor race.

In the early Sixties, Ferraris dominated the entry, works cars, unofficial works cars, works-supported cars and this-is-not-really-a-works-car cars. In the mid-Sixties we had so many Ford GTs entered by so many teams, very few if any, were completely private entries. In the early eighties, without the plethora of Porsche 956s, LM would have disappeared. Why are we now so concerned about the possibility (and, so far, it only a possibility) of multiple entries from Peugeot and Audi?

The talk of losing the GTAm entry is a dangerous path to go down. IIRC it was GT that effectively saved LM after the pathetic entry of 92. The GTE Am class may not be as spectacular as P1, but it's one of the fundamentals of LM. Throw it out and you may find there's no bath water left.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the ACO will organise the class structure and invite whom it wishes, irrespective of what John Dagys, or the Ten-tenths forum says. We all know they're a law unto themselves.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I would . Why penalise the little fella ?

2 factory cars per team ..... nuf said .

There are some who believe like you. There are others who think that Le Mans is fundamentally a P1 manufacturers race and that privateers and other classes are just fillers when there aren't enough factory P1s. Where the ACOs thought is, who knows. They don't follow their own rules so I guess the ultimate answer will be determined by where the money is. What's new?

Originally Posted by Le Vieux

I'm a little surprised at the short memories of what are generally knowledgeable contributors to this forum.

We're not talking apples and oranges: we're talking satsumas and clementines. There may have been some changes, but we're still talking the premier class of the world's premier motor race.

In the early Sixties, Ferraris dominated the entry, works cars, unofficial works cars, works-supported cars and this-is-not-really-a-works-car cars. In the mid-Sixties we had so many Ford GTs entered by so many teams, very few if any, were completely private entries. In the early eighties, without the plethora of Porsche 956s, LM would have disappeared. Why are we now so concerned about the possibility (and, so far, it only a possibility) of multiple entries from Peugeot and Audi?

The talk of losing the GTAm entry is a dangerous path to go down. IIRC it was GT that effectively saved LM after the pathetic entry of 92. The GTE Am class may not be as spectacular as P1, but it's one of the fundamentals of LM. Throw it out and you may find there's no bath water left.

Lastly, and probably most importantly, the ACO will organise the class structure and invite whom it wishes, irrespective of what John Dagys, or the Ten-tenths forum says. We all know they're a law unto themselves.

Here's the problem: There's 56 spots on the grid. There's 4 classes (3 of which are distinctly different) plus the Wang. Almost every class is oversubscribed. How do you distribute the entries? Evenly across the 4 classes? Ok, there is recent precedent for that. Do you make the race prototype heavy at the expense of GTs? Well, there's precedent for that too. Going with a prototype heavy grid, do you give spots evenly to privateers and factory teams or do you favor factory teams? There's precedent one way and the other there too. So on and so forth. Which precedent do you want?

I know the ACO will do whatever and it does not matter if we reach consensus here, but it's a discussion board so we might as well discuss it. It's not a minor issue I don't think! And it's a philosophical clash that is going to come to a boil soon with all the auto-invites from the various series, WEC auto-invites, 56th garages, and the expected increases of factory P1 teams.

[Coach Ep]

Couldn´t the problem be easily solved (or at least substantially degraded) if the ACO was to put up an extra set of garages? Is there space (been there but haven´t actually paid attention to it in that way) and will the pit exit still be long enough (to meet the regs)? If not, could it be extended or something?

Any formerly made remarks/comments from the ACO on this subject?

Just a thought.

[The Badger]

Temporary set up near the Prost go-kart track for GTE/Am & Pro would do fine .

[Tim the Grey]

Think back to 1970? 6 WORKS Porsches. 5 WORKS Ferraris.
Yet those are the Titanic Battle memories.
Bring it on, I say!
As said otherwise, just how many 956 or 962 ran in the mid 80s, with room for Jags and Saubers too.

Meanwhile, it's good to see Henri Pescarolo is back racing at Le Mans. In his old Inaltera, to boot... Le Mans classic, of course! http://www.lemansclassic.com/userfil...esengagsN1.pdf

[Fogelhund]

The main problem here is that if you aren't in the WEC, have an autobid, or are one of the manufacturers in LMP1, you just are less and less likely able to go. This further illustrates the issues of management at the top, we aren't building this genre, we are weakening it.

Why 56 cars? The track can handle more... quite a few more.. build the garages already.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Why 56 cars? The track can handle more... quite a few more.. build the garages already.

The geography of the pit straight is such that major demolition/relocation/rebuilding would be necessary in order to accommodate more garages. It could be done, of course, but it would be the brand new 'Welcome' building at one end and the 'landmark' race control building at the other which would need to go. Somehow, I can't see that happening any time soon.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

The geography of the pit straight is such that major demolition/relocation/rebuilding would be necessary in order to accommodate more garages. It could be done, of course, but it would be the brand new 'Welcome' building at one end and the 'landmark' race control building at the other which would need to go. Somehow, I can't see that happening any time soon.

Assuming of course that the pit straight proper is the only place to build pits....

It should also be noted that F1 gets along just fine with two car teams sharing one garage. I appreciate that could be complicated if both cars had issues... but... it can be done.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Assuming of course that the pit straight proper is the only place to build pits....

The pit straight proper is on ACO property, a large part of the rest of the track... isn't.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It should also be noted that F1 gets along just fine with two car teams sharing one garage. I appreciate that could be complicated if both cars had issues... but... it can be done.

That's simply not an option at Le Mans, the garages are very small (by modern F1 circuit standards) and barely adequate for one car, let alone two.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

As said otherwise, just how many 956 or 962 ran in the mid 80s, with room for Jags and Saubers too.

That would work fine if the ACO wants to make GT cars rare like they were back then, but it may not work so well if they want to give each WEC class an equal share. We'll see.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The main problem here is that if you aren't in the WEC, have an autobid, or are one of the manufacturers in LMP1, you just are less and less likely able to go. This further illustrates the issues of management at the top, we aren't building this genre, we are weakening it.

Why 56 cars? The track can handle more... quite a few more.. build the garages already.

The possible problem with adding more cars to the grid is that the race could become devalued at some point in the future if getting 65 cars (let's just say) becomes difficult. Having a list of rejected/wait listed teams may raise Le Mans' profile a bit.

I'm trying to figure out the situation right now. Let's say each class gets 14 entries. If there are four Audis, four Peugeots, and 1 Toyota, that leaves 5 spots for Rebellion, Strakka, and OAK (who we know will show up), Pescarolo, Dyson, and Muscle Milk (teams that may show up). Am I forgetting anyone else? If this is all that shows up, things might work out ok especially if there are 15-17 P1 spots (I think there were 17 last year). Some of those maybes probably won't show up. I don't know if it'll still be sufficient in 2013-2014 if there are multiple Toyotas and Porsches though. Oh course, if there are 15-17 spots, those spots have to come from another class. It won't be P2 I don't think as that is looking oversubscribed. GTE may have to take the cut then.