Nelson Phillippe

[Amar7605]

I don't know if any of you noticed at LB, but at the Rocketsports garage, Nelson just walked up, said hello to everyone and signed autographs. We got one and a photo taken! And he has a heck of a handshake grip!

But the really cool thing was that he just walked up on his own. He didn't have a team rep or anyone like that next to him. So, it seems that he really wants to please the fans. Yes he is young, and for whatever reason that he is in the series I hope that he gets better and does really well.

[Mags]

Originally posted by Amar7605
I don't know if any of you noticed at LB, but at the Rocketsports garage, Nelson just walked up, said hello to everyone and signed autographs. We got one and a photo taken! And he has a heck of a handshake grip!

But the really cool thing was that he just walked up on his own. He didn't have a team rep or anyone like that next to him. So, it seems that he really wants to please the fans. Yes he is young, and for whatever reason that he is in the series I hope that he gets better and does really well.

When I was trying to take pictures of him in the car, he kept putting his hands over his eyes!! I think he's very sweet, and VERY poised for his age. I'm glad to hear he's treating the fans well. That's a good start. RFM will (hopefully) be getting an interview with him in the next few weeks.

[sr230772]

on motors t.v they had a mini bio on mr phillpes his daddy must be seriously rich but he did a good job on sunday

[camcartfan]

Nelson was very friendly at the Champ Car preview. Glad to see he's still doing it.

[Superunknown]

it's not like he tore up barber dodge, by the arguments made here, most every atlantics driver and half the BDPS drivers can successfully drive a champ car, and I'd have to differ there.

[Liz]

I don't know how you can say he's "unsuccessful" when he has only driven one race and was darned good for a child in his first race.

I'd like to see you do better.

[indycool]

It's not valid whether a poster can drive a Champ Car are not. That's not the point being made. The point was that he was a "child," as you put it, who finished 11th in Barber Dodge points, thus the question is his qualifications to be there at all.

If doing "darned good" is staying out of the way several laps down in one race in a major championship, the bar for that major championship has been lowered.

[JohnSSC]

Well if the relative driving ability of the poster is a requirement to be able to comment than that leaves out everyone in this thread!

I need to find the list of what we actually are allowed to discuss here.

Let's see: I won a Regional Championship in Showroom Stock, so I guess I can only comment on driver talent at that level...

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Liz
I don't know how you can say he's "unsuccessful" when he has only driven one race and was darned good for a child in his first race.

I'd like to see you do better.

If his name was Nelson Philips, you would be calling him a ride-buyer from the get go. Considering how you have bashed Townsend Bell and Geoff Boss in the past without ever having done better than either of them (IE: win something in a racing series), I don't see how you of all people should be complaining.

If Fabio wants to learn how to drive a race car, there is reason why they have Toyota Atlantic. True, he wasn't a mobile chicane like Roberto Gonzalez was, but if he isn't ready to go fast, he should be racing somewhere that he would be competitive in. See Ranger, Andrew (don't worry he is not American, so feel free to see him in a positive light).

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Mags
He wasn't ANY worse than the Japanese blue flaggers. And before anyone goes mental on me, I'm sorry, but they were ALL backmarkers. I defy anyone to prove me wrong. Sure, Takagi towards the end of his CART career started to FINALLY get a few good finishes, but bottom line is they were in the series for Honda and Toyota and were not up to standard. We will always have drivers like that in the series.

Next thing you know you are going to be telling me Forsythe only hires Canadians!

Takagi finished 10th in a 28 car field in his first Champ Car race.

Nakano finished 8th in a 25 car field in his first Champ Car race.

Phillippe finished 13th in a 18 car field in his first Champ Car race.

All 3 are super nice guys.

Unless Fabio "boy-ish good looks" had something do with his driving, I don't see how he was any better. Sure, Nakano and Takagi weren't setting the world on fire, but at least they had flashes of brilliance and was usually fast enough to at least be competitive. Fabio was visibily slower, and if he is only going to get faster in x years, then he should go get faster in a junior category and come back and race when he is faster. CCWS isn't a series designed to teach some rich kids how to drive.

[JohnSSC]

Good points Cork.

Historically the knock on the Japanese drivers is that they could be ridiculously quick, but the experience level wasn't there to help them use their speed.

Phillipe is just as much a pay ride as the others mentioned. I am glad he has the sense to stay the heck out of the way but he should be somewhere learning his craft at this age. Talented as Michael Andretti and Little Al were (and I saw them both in Formula Ford) they were doing exactly that at the same age as the latest "wunderkind." They were out learning their craft. Both could have had rides in the big show but they gained experience the right way and joined when they were ready. The results speak for themselves.

And since when is disagreeing with a post using a factual basis anything but good, basic journalism?

[jj2728]

Originally posted by Liz
I don't know how you can say he's "unsuccessful" when he has only driven one race and was darned good for a child in his first race.

an inexperienced child at that....just what OWRS needs, children with very little experience driving 200 mph + cars through city streets.....he bought his way in....

[Mags]

John, stats for 1 race do not reflect the whole. I have many friends that where "hard card" turnworkers, and Takagi and Shinji were never in the top 10 in every race. They did not have the talent. They were called "blue flaggers" for a reason. And, there were several others. I used them as an example of drivers that have thier rides paid for, because we were talking about this very topic (paid rides, be it by sponsers or personal funds) on this thread.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by corkholio
If his name was Nelson Philips, you would be calling him a ride-buyer from the get go.

Didn't they have a hit with "Hold On"?

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Mags
John, stats for 1 race do not reflect the whole. I have many friends that where "hard card" turnworkers, and Takagi and Shinji were never in the top 10 in every race. They did not have the talent. They were called "blue flaggers" for a reason. And, there were several others. I used them as an example of drivers that have thier rides paid for, because we were talking about this very topic (paid rides, be it by sponsers or personal funds) on this thread.

So now only people with credentials are allowed to determine what position a driver is running?

Both guys I mentioned finished in the top 10 in far bigger fields in their first race. One has even scored points in F1 despite having a boss who did everything to sabotage his career.

[indycool]

With all due respect, "stats" for one Barber Dodge season showed 11th in points. One OWRS race in which he stayed out of the way and finished several laps down does not make him the next Senna. And anyone can name ride-buyers in any series. The point was Phillippe, who was given "special dispensation" (quote from Mauk) in violation of SFKAC/OWRS rules to allow him to drive a 200 mile-an-hour race car at under 18 years of age.

[Mags]

Originally posted by corkholio
So now only people with credentials are allowed to determine what position a driver is running?

Ah, well, I'd take the words of the people that blue flag as thier job every weekend of the year. Yes, I would.

[Mags]

Originally posted by indycool
With all due respect, "stats" for one Barber Dodge season showed 11th in points. One OWRS race in which he stayed out of the way and finished several laps down does not make him the next Senna. And anyone can name ride-buyers in any series. The point was Phillippe, who was given "special dispensation" (quote from Mauk) in violation of SFKAC/OWRS rules to allow him to drive a 200 mile-an-hour race car at under 18 years of age.

It's not like he won't be 18 in a few months. And he proved he can DRIVE the car without crashing. What about that driver that refused to move over even after several blue flags for Tracy? I'd say HE was more of a danger than young Phillipe. Give the kid a chance. He's a ROOKIE. (with a hot girlfriend, too!)

[indycool]

Sure, let's give 14 year olds a chance if they have money. Not crashing in one race doesn't prove he can drive the car.

[Muzza]

There are two main types of successful drivers:

1.) The "naturals", people that possess a very special gift, an unusual skill, who show outstanding abilities from a young age (or at their very first racing outings). They are "quick out of the box", drive with rather spectacular style and are usually (I said usually, not always) less stable emotionally - but are also very charismatic people, able to move people/team around them. Strongly individualist personality is also a commmon tract. They are not always the most successful ones in the long run. Examples are Ayrton Senna, Gilles Villeneuve, Juan Manuel Fangio, Greg Moore, Ronnie Peterson, Jochen Rindt, Stefan Bellof, Bernd Rosemeyer, Jackie Stewart...

2.) The "learners", drivers that developed their craft patiently, throught try-and-error, observation, coaching (this does not mean that these drivers are absent of talent - far from that! However, the "learners" do not depend blindly on their descommunal talent to succeed. Their triumphs are the result of an acquired ability). They drive analytically and not rarely are great strategists. Examples are Michael Andretti, Mark Donohue, Graham Hill, Nelson Piquet, Alain Prost (this one a very dedicated "student" from an early age, but never a natural), Niki Lauda, Bobby Rahal...

(this is of course a general classification)

And where does Nelson Philippe fits in? Well, he is a "type 2" driver. He is not a "natural", but he may become a great champion one day. He started well in Champ Cars (he showed better than most in his first race), he avoided the temptation of "running for a gap" in the first lap accident to make up positions (something that Tarso Marques, a mercurial driver tried to) - what is unusual for a 17-year old kid, he understood that he is there to learn. He was focusing on getting the driving lines right and on not messing anybody else's race. And, of course, he has a lot of money to support his career.

Did he impress me? Not. But I was not expecting him to be "Senna reborn" (oh, please...), so he did not disappoint.

I would like to remember that Mario DomÃ*nguez and Michel Jourdain badly disappointed me initially (I really though Michel would not go anywhere) - but look where they are now. Both are potential race winners (maybe even title winners, although Michel stands no chance this year). They learned their craft, and Philippe may do just the same (Philippe is similar to them in another aspect: they are all from rich families that fully supported their racing activities).

It is far too soon to dismiss Nelson Philippe. To me, as I wrote, he is definitely not a "natural" - but, hey, Alain Prost wasn't one either...

Also, be careful when assuming that just because a driver is successful in minor formulae he/she will shine amongst the big dogs, and that one that fails to dominate in Formula 3, Atlantics and similar cannot be a Formula 1 or Champ Car champion. Statiscally, the most common is actually the opposite. Racing history is littered with examples of that.

Cheers,

Muzza

[corkholio]

Can someone (preferrably only someone with credentials, because only their opinion matter) tell me what is the whole purpose of having this series then?

[Jordi]

First logical post in the thread, Muzza.

[Mags]

Originally posted by Muzza
And where does Nelson Philippe fits in? Well, he is a "type 2" driver. He is not a "natural", but he may become a great champion one day. "snip"

I would like to remember that Mario DomÃ*nguez and Michel Jourdain badly disappointed me initially (I really though Michel would not go anywhere) - but look where they are now. "snip"

It is far too soon to dismiss Nelson Philippe. To me, as I wrote, he is definitely not a "natural" - but, hey, Alain Prost wasn't one either...

Also, be careful when assuming that just because a driver is successful in minor formulae he/she will shine amongst the big dogs, and that one that fails to dominate in Formula 3, Atlantics and similar cannot be a Formula 1 or Champ Car champion. Statiscally, the most common is actually the opposite. Racing history is littered with examples of that.

Well Said Muzza!! Like I said.. GIVE THE ROOKIE A CHANCE. He didn't SMASH anyone into a wall **COUGH Townsend Bell COUGH** and he drove a clean race.

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Mags
Well Said Muzza!! Like I said.. GIVE THE ROOKIE A CHANCE. He didn't SMASH anyone into a wall **COUGH Townsend Bell COUGH** and he drove a clean race.

Townsend Bell never smashed anyone into a wall in his first race either, but he was driving with an American passport.

[cartpix]

Originally posted by Mags
Well Said Muzza!! Like I said.. GIVE THE ROOKIE A CHANCE. He didn't SMASH anyone into a wall **COUGH Townsend Bell COUGH** and he drove a clean race.

I remember Geoff Boss, driving a clean race, at Laguna Seca, last year.
**COUGH slow COUGH**

Jeff