Who is M. Schupunter and why... - Page 2

n2fires · 18 Mar 2002, 06:37 (Ref:238121)

May I join the debate?
DC has raised the question of schumi's swerving and it has been allowed for a driver (not just MS) to change line once in defending his position from the start, and one move to go onto the racing line.
Everyone knows that MS is going to do it and everyone expects it. JPM commented on this in the post race press conference.
JPM could have allowed more room for MS at the first corner and still had the better line into the second corner. I believe the marshall's may have felt he was at fault because he did
not try to avoid contact, which he never does.
I know all of the MS bashers like to bring up his past indescretions at Aus. and Jerez, but the conveniently forget instances when he has taken to the grass to avoid over ambitious moves by other drivers.
I think we are in for some really good racing between the 2 drivers, but this was a racing incident. Avoidable, but a racing incident none the less. MS could have lifted, but he was not required to do it and JPM could have left more space and still held his "advantage" but he was not required to do this either ( except by the Marshall's)
Both drivers could have gone off as a result. If JPM and MS keep it up, we will have a new German WDC this year.

Jukebox · 18 Mar 2002, 07:10 (Ref:238131)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Austin

Show me in the rules where it says one move is allowed. It is not there. Nowhere. And "manuvers liable to hinder other drivers" specifically prohibit the swerve.It is all there in black and white how the swerve is illegal. You can't show me anywhere in the FIA rulebook where it says one move is legal. Nowhere. It does not exist.

If anyone can show me in the FIA rules where the one move is allowed, I will be delighted to reverse my position. buit i have been begging everyone and anyone since Austrilia to point out that passage in the rule book and no one has come forward with it. because it does not exist. Period.

Too bad the rules aren't available for everyone to review...at least there are more sensible people who see it in the same way as i do...do join in n2fires

Why don't you show us in the rule book where it says that you can't swerve once to find a better racing line Dr Austin. It's a familiar sight to swerve once, even the midfield & at the back do it in every race. Penalise all of them and we'll have half of the racers being penalised if according to your rule.

calais · 18 Mar 2002, 10:09 (Ref:238209)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Beer baron, TGF stands for....

The God of Formula1

T

G

F

jukebox, can you get it out of your head that he swerves of the startline to find a "better racing line"

he swerves to block the car starting second, which is unsporting and should be illegal

Mr V · 18 Mar 2002, 10:24 (Ref:238217)

Quote:

Originally posted by n2fires
JPM could have allowed more room for MS at the first corner and still had the better line into the second corner. I believe the marshall's may have felt he was at fault because he did
not try to avoid contact, which he never does.

how was jpm to know, when he's slightly ahead of tgf, that tgf was gonna "understeer" into him? say for instance juan thought "he's gonna understeer into me so i'll give him an extra meter or so" then tgf brakes properly, all of a sudden, tgf's through, and so are about another 5 cars as jpm's out there in the wilderness!

Langers · 18 Mar 2002, 10:34 (Ref:238221)

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Austin

Show me in the rules where it says one move is allowed. It is not there. Nowhere. And "manuvers liable to hinder other drivers" specifically prohibit the swerve.It is all there in black and white how the swerve is illegal. You can't show me anywhere in the FIA rulebook where it says one move is legal. Nowhere. It does not exist.

If anyone can show me in the FIA rules where the one move is allowed, I will be delighted to reverse my position. buit i have been begging everyone and anyone since Austrilia to point out that passage in the rule book and no one has come forward with it. because it does not exist. Period.

I was under the impression that the "move once" rule was an agreement between the drivers and not a set in concrete rule from the FIA.

strad · 18 Mar 2002, 10:49 (Ref:238233)

Hey you guys..there is no rule..just an understanding..the RULE clearly states that to swing across the track to block an opponent is illegal.

strad · 18 Mar 2002, 10:53 (Ref:238235)

Do you guys not read the rules or not know how to access the site?
The problem stems from imho
A.. the vagarity of the rule
and
B. this understanding that they arrived at that you can change your line once to block then once to move back on your proper line for the corner....

yorkie · 18 Mar 2002, 12:03 (Ref:238287)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox

Too bad the rules aren't available for everyone to review...at least there are more sensible people who see it in the same way as i do...do join in n2fires

try looking here

EERO · 18 Mar 2002, 12:20 (Ref:238294)

Thanks for posting the link Yorkie, I was about to do it myself. Jukebox,Dr. Austin has quoted the rule several times in the last day on various threads. Any rational person reading the rule will see that the move IS illegal and realize that the FIA is "NOT consistent" in enforcing its own rules, (TGF's words, not mine). I just don't think that Schumacher realizes the irony of his statement.

EERO · 18 Mar 2002, 12:26 (Ref:238300)

BTW the relevant parts are Chapter IV, Section 2, paragraphs (c) and (d).

Fuel · 18 Mar 2002, 13:55 (Ref:238379)

there is no point in going against the 'the red baron'(ms, not the one here), many have tried over the years, but to no avail, lets just be happy that ms finished behind jpm. if we cast our minds back to the austrailian gp, the race wasn't red flagged because ms was still in the race.

Spaced Invader · 18 Mar 2002, 14:14 (Ref:238398)

Shusausage was happy to say it was a racing incident because hes still to points ahead in the championship

Nicholas · 18 Mar 2002, 15:19 (Ref:238438)

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
TGF stands for....

The God of Formula1

Something's not right

Who's coming up with all these rogue names?

Speed · 18 Mar 2002, 15:21 (Ref:238439)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
what does TGF stand for?

"That German Fellow", ask Liz for details.

But !, from now on I call him "Mr. Chop".

Dr. Austin · 18 Mar 2002, 15:31 (Ref:238445)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jukebox
Too bad the rules aren't available for everyone to review..."

For the tenth time;

http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html

"Why don't you show us in the rule book where it says that you can't swerve once to find a better racing line Dr Austin."

There's the link. read for yourself. It does not specifically address "one move," but it's bans it on several grounds with several discriptions. It NEVER says one move is ok.

" It's a familiar sight to swerve once, even the midfield & at the back do it in every race. Penalise all of them and we'll have half of the racers being penalised if according to your rule."

It's not MY rules. When are some of you slower people going to pick up on that? It's the FIA's rules. It's the rules than govern the safe conduct of the very sport. And so what if they penalize everyone? Do you want a credibly run sport or not? Or would you just like to see the rules allplied to everyone but the red cars?

drexel · 18 Mar 2002, 15:44 (Ref:238452)

Quote:

what does TGF stand for?

Quote:

"That German Fellow", ask Liz for details.

Is that official? Nah...

Quote:

Originally posted by Jukebox
Beer baron, TGF stands for....

The God of Formula1

This one will do...

Ed-f1 · 18 Mar 2002, 15:55 (Ref:238459)

The rules are vague, inconsistently applied, open to misinterpretation and even inconsistent within themselves as far as I can see. That is why people ask for clarification all the time. As I recall that is what happened regarding the swerving at the start rule. David Coulthard asked for the rules to be clarified after Schumacher started cutting in front of him at the start of races in 2000. The ruling was that one move is allowed but no more. Irritatingly though, I can't find a link to prove this. However what I have found is DCs comments in the post race press conference of the french GP 2000 after a similar start by schumacher.

Q. What did you think of Michael's start?

DC: The rules allow us to make one change of position [approaching or leaving a corner], so he was within the rules. But once again I had to lift, then weave to one side, because a car was veering across the front of mine. Those are the rules - and I can do the same if I ever make a good start. Today I think my start was better than Michael's, but it's a very short run to the first corner - and once he cut across, I had to lift. Then because Rubens had also made a good start he was able to use that momentum to go round the outside of me. But there I didn't try to run Rubens off the circuit. I gave him the room that I thought he deserved to have, we battled it through the corner - and he won it. That's how it should be, it should be done in a sporting way, not in a 'you lift, otherwise you will crash' sort of way.

If the drivers and officials accept that it is legal then like it or not, it is legal.

Splatz the Cow · 18 Mar 2002, 17:14 (Ref:238518)

I think 90% of you are missing the point, there are losers and winners, and many of your suggestions are not what winners do.

Andretti(S), Zanardi, M.Schumacher, Montoya, Hakkinen, Prost, Mansell, Senna, Berger, Lauda, Villeneuve, de Ferran, Moore, Earnhardt, Jeff Gordon ..... Do you think any of these, or any other champion driver, driver would actually let a world champion driver pass them by giving more space????????????

Some of the comments here show a lack of understanding of the mind-set of these champion drivers. Letting your nemesis through without a fight may save the race but you'll lose the season. Once you give up space against the No.1 driver in the series, (whomever it may be,) you career is virtually limited to second for good, because you didn't challenge the pecking order.

Neither Montoya nor Schumacher were going to give a little bit more room, resulting in the crash. That's why rules were put in place as to when a person had "won" a corner or made a pass, meaning the other driver would be the one who "had" to submit the position if not doing so would result in a crash.

**Bononi** · 18 Mar 2002, 17:28 (Ref:238532)

The only wait to stop JPM and TGF hitting each other, fighting for a position, is forcing their starts in different lines in the grid... like TGF in the last line and JPM in the first.

But seriously, it was racing, and if FIA doesn't clarify when to apply the rules then...

Splatz the Cow · 18 Mar 2002, 17:38 (Ref:238542)

The real problem with side-by-side racing comes when one driver who must submit the postion or challenge, because they are deemed sufficiently "behind" the other driver, refuses to back-of and causes an accident or other dangerous situation.

The stewards then at some stage remind the drivers of their responsibilies when racing, by fining, penalising with a stop and go in the pits, or a cautionary discussion in a drivers meeting.

Other than that, good drivers will do everything to HINDER someone getting past. Some drivers behave poorly by trying to STOP someone passing by swerving at the other car (seen at hire karts, and all the way to F1 races,) or actually making forceful contact intended to damage their opponents chances.

My last comment is on the issue of repeat offenders. If history is taken into account, as we do here and as is the case in a court of law, previous driving offences should count. This way if somebody is notorious for not following the guidelines set by the FIA and also the Drivers Association, their deeds will truly catch up with them.

Drivers will be trying to maintain a good record, and hopefully one day, Adelaide 94, and Jerez 97, will be given the closure it surely needs. Then we'll have some racing with no regrets.

Splatz the Cow · 18 Mar 2002, 18:27 (Ref:238578)

Appendix L th the International Sporting Code

Chapter IV - Code of Driving Conduct on Circuits
Art.1 Overtaking

"
2 - OVERTAKING
a) during a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side.
b) if the driver who has been caught does not seem to make full
use of his rear-view mirror the flag marshal(s) will give a warning
by waving the blue flag to indicate that another competitor wants
to overtake.
Any driver who does not take notice of the blue flag may be
penalised by the Sporting Stewards.
Systematic or repeated offences may result in the exclusion of
the offender from the race.
c) curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be
negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of
the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be
done either on the right or on the left.
However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as
premature changes of direction, more than one change of
direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,
are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the
importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging
from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of
dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race.
d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several
drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The
persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fan-shaped
arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car
trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue flag will be waved.
e) the penalty inflicted for ignoring the blue flag will also be
applied to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be
more severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging
from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The same
penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the
track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from
overtaking.
f) the repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of
control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the
exclusion of the drivers concerned.
g) the race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the
race."

====================================================

This is copied from the pdf file I got from the FIA with the Appendix related to "CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT".

All right everyone, go at it......

Dr. Austin · 18 Mar 2002, 18:42 (Ref:238598)

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Splatz the Cow

[B]Appendix L th the International Sporting Code"

OH! The humanity!

"However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers"

notice there is no mention of going faster through the corner to protect your position. If you go faster, no one can pass you. Going faster is allowed. At least it isn't disallowed, but the FIA will find a way when it suits them.

"such as premature changes of direction,"

This would include;

Spa 2000, Imola 2000, Magny cours 2000, Adelaide 1994, Jerez 97, Maylasia 2002, and of course, many more.

"more than one change of direction,"

Spa 2000 is a really good example of this. Australia is the most stupid abuse of this rule. If I were Ralf, I would kick rubins in the nuts.

"deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the
outside of the curve"

Understeering into someone is called "crowding." whether or not that is deliberate is another question, but I believe the element of benifit of the doubt can no longer be applied.

" or any other abnormal change of direction,"

Too numerous to list, but everyone knows what this rule means.

"any obstructive manoeuvre.....is prohibited."

Is this the perfect discription of a swerve or what?

"The same penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking."

That sure sounds like a perfect discription of sunday's start to me. Notice it does not say it is illegal the second time only. Notice it does NOT say it is legal the first time. All it says is that swinging from one side of the track to the other is illegal. That would seem to me to include the first swerve.

Splatz the Cow · 18 Mar 2002, 20:14 (Ref:238660)

The Doctor's in the House!!!!!

I thought I'd leave the interpretation honours to you Dr.Austin, for your persistance on this issue being rewarded.

Also people can find for themselves the list of penalties.

Interestingly it does mention, "Systematic or repeated offences....

"The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion
from the race."

"f) the repetition of serious mistakes ...... may entail the exclusion of the drivers concerned.

It's not clear if Juan is also guilty of crowding Michael at Sepang, coz I didn't get a good view, but I think we realise that there is certainly inconsitancy with these rules in Michael's favour. He never gets penalised on track plain and simple. He only got penalised after Jerez 97 coz the FIA could not justify letting him of, and with people protesting the incident, it was one they couldn't escape.

There are legal implications here it seems, but Ferrari just has more money behind it.

Take the F, I and A, out of Ferrari and you got one big errr....!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jukebox · 19 Mar 2002, 01:28 (Ref:238892)

Thanks yorkie for the link....Dr Austin, since it's not in there, then it's up to the Marshall's discretion to judge whether it's legal or not and i for one agree with the Marshall's decision

Yup EERO...in a sense Dr Austin has a point there, but the damage has been done...i was on the other side of the grandstand, but at the start of the race i was standing and saw that there was ample space if JPM wanted to counter 'chop' TGF's move and TGF was slightly ahead when JPM closed the door when both of em was about to take the first turn...so i can make a conclusion that JPM could have avoided the incident if chose to.

drexel...to me TGF stands for what i had stated...you guys could call him whatever you guys want.

strad · 19 Mar 2002, 01:50 (Ref:238896)

I think the FIA would like to get rid of the swereve or chop or whatever you want to call it, but they have a problem...
If they now say,,hold it we have decided that swerving constitutes breaking the rules....then everyone goes nuts saying how Michael was given an unfair advantage all these times,,,it would cloud-as if it doesn't already to my mind- Michaels wins and championships. Now what kind of furor do you think that would cause?
At least til Mikeys gone, they have to let it stand.