General Sportscar Chat thread

[GT6]

I do agree that LMP can only take a limited number pf factory teams, but GT racing can take a whole lot more and for all of those Le Mans must be the ultimate prize, GT racing has never been more popular and compared to the cost of F1 or LMP it is often a profitable side line and it also sells more cars to the public.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Except for in GTE!

True, in terms of P1, however I think in such a high-costing class such as LMP1 it is good to have a stable flow of manufacturers rather than a bulk of factory teams like in 1999.

When there are too many factory teams involved in a series, there can only be one winner a season, so manufacturers lose interest and question why they spend so much money to be the 4th or 5th factory team. Examples of this mass manufacturer fallout are Le Mans 2000, BTCC 2000, F1 2009/2010.

IMO the perfect manufacturer number in P1 at least is 3.

[Simmi]

It's an interesting discussion that's been had before - would you like to see more P1 manufacturers despite knowing it will fall apart.

Or do you keep it ticking along with 2/3 teams.

I'd say yes to the bigger numbers every time. Even if/when it falls apart you're still basically going to end up where you were anyway. Why not try and go for another '98/'99 style dreamland if you could. People who complain about the potential of there being too many manufacturer P1 cars make me smile.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Simmi

It's an interesting discussion that's been had before - would you like to see more P1 manufacturers despite knowing it will fall apart.

Or do you keep it ticking along with 2/3 teams.

I'd say yes to the bigger numbers every time. Even if/when it falls apart you're still basically going to end up where you were anyway. Why not try and go for another '98/'99 style dreamland if you could. People who complain about the potential of there being too many manufacturer P1 cars make me smile.

I generally think its worth it as the manufacturer competition always seems to intensify the battle. However the privateers should never be forgotten.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Anyone who thinks a class of motorsport can survive in the long term with out privateers is clueless to the history of the sport and world economic situations impact on it.

[Simmi]

Who is saying chuck out the privateers? There were still plenty running in the late nineties. I don't think having more manufacturer P1s necessarily means less privateers. It just comes back to the regs.

The situation can't get much worse than it is now when there's arguably the best chance to get on the podium at Le Mans in the last few years.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Who is saying chuck out the privateers? There were still plenty running in the late nineties. I don't think having more manufacturer P1s necessarily means less privateers. It just comes back to the regs.

The situation can't get much worse than it is now when there's arguably the best chance to get on the podium at Le Mans in the last few years.

I agree in that you can have privateers with plenty of manufacturers as you say if the regulations are written correctly, without the privateers in the late 90s Le Mans would have had another 1993 in 2000.

And situations can always get worse, especially considering the skyrocketing costs associated with the new regulations for privateers.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MJones94

When there are too many factory teams involved in a series, there can only be one winner a season, so manufacturers lose interest and question why they spend so much money to be the 4th or 5th factory team.

Then Neveu just has to make it worth it to finish 4th or 5th. Right now that's of course the same as finishing last [in class]. The factory team hayday lasted quite long in F1 and some boardrooms seemed quite patient with expectations and results... and even when it ended, a bad economic situation played a big role.

ps. One thing I just realized: despite the many pullouts in F1, only one of them reduced the grid size, and it's the only one that was built in-house from scratch (Toyota).

[courageous]

How do you encourage privateer teams to take on the factories who will always have much more resources?

I think this is the financial crisis showing it's impact on motorsport:

the mega rich are now only super rich & can no longer spend enough on their hobby to match the ultra rich.

But to be mega/super rich, you have to have the kind of ego which would stop you wanting to run in the 2nd division or be clever enough not to spend your fortune chasing a world power like VAG

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Deggis, that's F1 though.

In sportscar racing with some exceptions (like Peugeot) it's been mostly due to companies leaving for other 'bigger and better (more popular)' forms of motorsport, namely, you guessed it, Formula 1.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Deggis, that's F1 though.

In sportscar racing with some exceptions (like Peugeot) it's been mostly due to companies leaving for other 'bigger and better (more popular)' forms of motorsport, namely, you guessed it, Formula 1.

More like valid examples of leaving for F1 are the exceptions.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by Mal

There have been a few threads recently that whilst having healthy discussion have wandered somewhat off topic and meandered into new directions. Therefore I thought it would be good to have a broad discussion thread in which wider topics could be discussed as long as they have a link to Sportscar racing, remain in good humour and within the forum rules. So here it is - talk away..... The floor is yours.

Interesting...ever so vague...

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Who is saying chuck out the privateers? There were still plenty running in the late nineties. I don't think having more manufacturer P1s necessarily means less privateers. It just comes back to the regs.

As long as we have limited grid spots, more manufactures will always mean less privateers .

A privateer team is in the race for the long run, they live for the racing.
A manufacture team is in the race for a more or less limited time, as it's not what they live for.

For me having 2-3 Manufactures all the time, and the rest privateers is optimal. As I rather see a race being strong for a long time, than it to have a few strong years, and then become weak.

[Dario911]

To have a stable starting grid in P1, there must be stable rules, first of all.
Then, you must have a better media coverage, discussing the technical rules with all manufacturer involved in the field, making a trophy for private teams.
Other things to do are a time constraint for all manufacturers involved in the championship (at least 3 seasons), giving more freedom to engineers about technical innovations they may experiment on the cars. It's time to stop to make the rules on the size of the manufacturers intend to take place in the series, but make the same rules for all. This make credible any championship.
Another one thing, is to limit the works car in Le Mans at just 2 each manufacturer team.
With at least 3 or 4 stable manufacturers involved in the championship, and a large private teams field, a strong media coverage would be easier to achieve.

[Mal]

Part of the problem for the privateers increased reliability of the factory teams as barring big accidents the chances of them finishing is very high and therefore they will normally lock out the podium.

[GT6]

Much as i hate to say it Mr Eccelstone and his team in F1 have controlled the finances well and along with making themselves mega rich they have ensured that some of the money generated by the sport keeps the teams going, even if you fail to gain points in a season you still get a percentage of the cash generated, In sports car racing all teams must finance themselves not easy in today's economic climate.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by GT6

Much as i hate to say it Mr Eccelstone and his team in F1 have controlled the finances well and along with making themselves mega rich they have ensured that some of the money generated by the sport keeps the teams going, even if you fail to gain points in a season you still get a percentage of the cash generated, In sports car racing all teams must finance themselves not easy in today's economic climate.

Thats true, but unfortunately that only works when you have got enough attendance and viewers to get circuits and TV companies willing to pay big money to get you. Mr E has done a brilliant job of elevating F1's popularity, whilst stamping on other series so that F1 is the only globally popular motorsport series.

I think sportscars needs to concentrate on building an ever bigger and bigger loyal and high quality fanbase rather than channel surfing casual viewers as the nature of endurance racing does not suit those casual viewer as it requires longer attention span to understand it. We all know that once your hooked then you cant let go!

[GT6]

I do agree but if sports car racing had strong leadership and the ability to organise itself into a more saleable brand then TV coverage would follow and the sport would grow, The strong organisation and vision of the Blancpain series has seen it grow and attract high quality sponsors so it can work and attract both fans and cars the WEC effort has been a good try but has fallen short IMHO

[Mal]

An interesting question came up today whilst watching the Audi Monza test video with a colleague - does anyone know the amount of downforce generated by topline P1 car compared to an F1 car? I assume the F1 car is more, but the way the R18 went flat out into the curva grande - made me wonder?

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Mal

An interesting question came up today whilst watching the Audi Monza test video with a colleague - does anyone know the amount of downforce generated by topline P1 car compared to an F1 car? I assume the F1 car is more, but the way the R18 went flat out into the curva grande - made me wonder?

I think values are closer than how we may think. I don't know exactly the numeric values, but I'm alway surprised how fast are P1 in confront of F1.
P1 are heavier, their power is restricted, but they're very close to F1. This is incredible! Then if you think F1 can only be fast like a F1 only for 2 hours, while a P1 can be as fast as a P1 for at least 24 hours... is incredible!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mal

I think sportscars needs to concentrate on building an ever bigger and bigger loyal and high quality fanbase rather than channel surfing casual viewers as the nature of endurance racing does not suit those casual viewer as it requires longer attention span to understand it. We all know that once your hooked then you cant let go!

Trouble is there aren't that many people who are as superior as ourselves. It takes a special person to concentrate so long on being so much better than other fans.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

As long as we have limited grid spots, more manufactures will always mean less privateers .

Originally Posted by Dario911

Another one thing, is to limit the works car in Le Mans at just 2 each manufacturer team.

Quality vs. quantity: I think it's really Rebellion-like teams with strong sponsors what is most needed in P1, not the rich gentlemans (and P2 is for them anyway). So I don't see 3x manufacturer entries per team restricting the amount of privateers, especially not in P1, because vast amounts of privateers wouldn't be there anyway.

And if P1 numbers somehow manage to escalate after 2014, I will never understand restricting manufacturer entries to two as long as there is this certain literally amateur class.

[GT6]

I think the manufacture limit of 3 or 4 is really self regulating, the expense and risks mean that most manufacturers will not plough resources into something that already has to many other serious competitors there are many other forms of motor sport and therefore many different paths

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Trouble is there aren't that many people who are as superior as ourselves. It takes a special person to concentrate so long on being so much better than other fans.

What a stupid and pointless statement

[Adam43]

Or, as I thought, a joke. Sorry should have used a winky. If you have a problem PM me.