Rookie of the year 2001 is... - Page 2

SILVERS95 · 14 Feb 2002, 17:05 (Ref:215921)

Red...your in cuckoo land mate....JPM is unbeleivably talented...and from wot ive just seen youve written its obvious that your just trying to turn around the fact that JPM had a great debut ( rookie) season , and has surlely got to be the main threat to TGF's crown this year .....

Mr V...im with you on this one , i dont see how anyone can belittle JPM's acheivements this year.

Speed · 14 Feb 2002, 19:14 (Ref:215985)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
lemme repeat: I am not criticizing Montoya!!!!!!!! (I might criticize something else here though.. )

Sorry, I thought you were criticizing JPM's driving style...
"Yes, you are right: it is impossible to overrev an engine. However! If you repeatedly and uselessly revv it 100% you CAN break it, and that's what juan did."

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
PS: We will never know what David would get at Monaco.... if! Fact is that he got 2 points....

What's your point ?, when any driver fit into 6th, the guy have to keep that position because he will bring one point to home, and have to save his engine, to keep that point ?!?!?!?!?.
Sorry, I think we (motor racing fans) deserve more than that !

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
Indeed Schumacher squeezed Ralf at Ring, but if I'm not very much mistaking they didn't touch.... indeed Michael and Pablo stayed on track but that was because Schumacher's driving skills (on both occasions)

Whaaat ?
When TGF overtakes and nobody gets hurt, is his driving skills what avoid accidents...
And when JPM overtakes and nobody gets hurt, is TGF skills too ?!?!?!?

Nicholas · 14 Feb 2002, 19:23 (Ref:215990)

I think Raikkonen deserved some sort of apology from anyone doubting his ability to hold a superliscense.

Don K · 14 Feb 2002, 19:36 (Ref:215997)

Quote:

Originally posted by paulzinho
I can't believe some people, a guy comes along that actually wants to win as opposed to being 1st of the losers, someone who doesn't settle for second when 1st is possible and what does he get... criticism. Unbelievable!!!

If it's possible, and you win the race, it's a good move.
If it causes you to retire, it's a bad move.

So if you have to retire after such a move, you cannot possibly claim that it has been a good move.
Of course it doesn't have to be a bad move (unless it can be proven that you would have finished in the points if you had settled for second).

paulzinho · 14 Feb 2002, 22:32 (Ref:216153)

I'm not saying that, but I prefer someone who tries, and JPM did without taking anyone out of the race, as opposed to someone who sits behind without even trying. IMO its possible to stick a nose in here and there to show your intent, if you're good enough you can do it forcefully without taking the opposition out.

By this I mean crawling over someones gearbox instead of sitting back and doing nothing.

I think i've explained it OK.

Mr V · 14 Feb 2002, 22:33 (Ref:216155)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
If it's possible, and you win the race, it's a good move.
If it causes you to retire, it's a bad move.

So if you have to retire after such a move, you cannot possibly claim that it has been a good move.
Of course it doesn't have to be a bad move (unless it can be proven that you would have finished in the points if you had settled for second).

in english please, i'm confused!!!!

all i will say, is imo it's better to try an attempt than just sit there, if you settle for second place in the 16 races of the season and the bloke in front goes on to win those 16 races then the bloke in second is still not gonna be wdc anyway........so he might aswell go for it!

Damon · 14 Feb 2002, 22:50 (Ref:216174)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
Ah, well, Monza... a race that noone really wanted to start let alone to win... maybe Pablo and Rubens. (and yes, I will "chuck" in that.)

I very much enjoyed Nigel Roebuck's take on the events of Monza in his article in Autosport. He said that of all the drivers racing that weekend he had most reason to be 'upset' and therefore underperform. The reason being that he had beeen in the USA for the past few years and thus was closer the the events that had transpired than any of the other drivers.

Roebuck also pointed out drivers are paid to drive racing cars to the best of their ability, irrespective of mood. JPM showed that he had a great deal prefessionalism when it came to race day and that he, more than any other, didn't let his heart rule his head.

Mr V · 14 Feb 2002, 22:56 (Ref:216179)

well said damon, couldn't have put it better myself!!! but no matter what you or anyone says about jpm at monza, all non JPM fans will say that the others weren't with it that weekend!

roebuck also said before the 2001 season started that he thought that JPM was the best driver he'd seen in 2 generations of F1 and that included TGF and SENNA.

Mr V · 14 Feb 2002, 23:08 (Ref:216185)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
roebuck also said before the 2001 season started that he thought that JPM was the best driver he'd seen in 2 generations of F1 and that included TGF and SENNA.

apologies, it wasn't Nigel Roebuck who said it, (roebuck reported it in his fifth column for autosport.december 14 2000) it was Bobby Rahal who said it.......

as reported in that issue

I asked Bobby (Rahal) what he thought of JPM,of whom he's seen alot, of course, in the last 2 seasons. "i think," he said,"he's the kind of driver who comes along once every 2 generations.

Was Rahal saying, then, that he thought Montoya the best driver he'd ever seen? "yes" he said, "i guess that is what i'm saying"

Red · 15 Feb 2002, 06:22 (Ref:216303)

Silvers, did I ever said that JPM is not incredible talented? Don’t think so. Now, if we speak about the great debut..... ah well, yes, you’re right here: that was NOT a great debut. So actually the rookie of the year has to be Kimi. Or maybe Alonso, too bad that not even Superman could have a sensational debut in that Minardi.

Speed: That was not criticism; that was just stating the obvious. I’m not sure about what we deserve, (if there is indeed something we deserve), but I’m quite sure that Mr. Williams would’ve preferred those 2 points instead of a crash. And no, Mr V, to try is not good enough. If you fail.

(would that be an accurate translation of Don's post?

)

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 11:12 (Ref:216391)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
And no, Mr V, to try is not good enough. If you fail. (would that be an accurate translation of Don's post?)

no.......not really, would this be the DC school of thinking???...i.e monaco, he could have tried harder to overtake bernoldi, ok maybe he would have clipped his wing or whatever, but there was a chance that he would have got past him and gone on to score more points! we will never know will we??

Red · 15 Feb 2002, 11:17 (Ref:216392)

ok, put it this way: you try and fail you're a loser; but prove to have balls. You don't try and come second you're a loser as well; but may argue you have brain. Both situation are embarrasing, but the second brings a couple of points..........

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 11:22 (Ref:216397)

agreed to a certain extent RED, but if you don't try, you don't know! and if you lose the championship (as an example) by 2 points or 20 points, you still ain't won!

do you think that everytime JPM or TGF went to overtake they thought, i'm going for it even though i will definatly crash into the other driver?

or do you think, i'm going for it, i know i'll make the pass as i'm quicker and build up a lead before the pit stops (another example)

Red · 15 Feb 2002, 11:27 (Ref:216400)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
[...]they thought, i'm going for it even though i will definatly crash into the other driver?

or do you think, i'm going for it, i know i'll make the pass as i'm quicker and build up a lead before the pit stops (another example)

Ahemmmmm... you don't want to know my complete opinion on this

, but your second assumption looks closer to reality. (by the way, if you try you will definitelly know the answer..... but is the answer alwasy satisfactory?)

PS: I'm not talking only about overtakings. I'm talking about pushing like hell too.

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 11:32 (Ref:216403)

so you think that when ever JPM goes for an overtake, there is a chance that he's going to stuff it into the other driver?? but when TGF tries the same move, no problem??

Gt_R · 15 Feb 2002, 13:01 (Ref:216441)

Woah...cool stuff here..

I'd just say that the best racer AND champion, would not just go for any opportunities, but evaluate the risk and probability of success and go for it when he knows he can (or at least have a very good chance to) take it.

To have brains help...like drivers like Ralf. To have balls help...like drivers like Juan. But to have brains and balls helps best...like Michael.

Juan's move on Michael was forceful, but everybit what is expected of a top line racer, much like Michael, brought to the limit. They should be encouraged, even if sometimes their moves will fail. But while aggresive and desire to overtake is encouraged, silly attempts of senseless overtakings should not, like Button in 2001 Monza, or Jacques in 2000 Canada.

I guess this makes me take the middle ground when compared to MrV and Red...

Damon · 15 Feb 2002, 18:38 (Ref:216599)

I feel JPM has as much brains as he does balls with his driving style. He was close enough to have a go at Ralf in Silverstone but chose not to as a safe oppotunity never came up. Each of his moves were clean and safe which showed there is a thinking man behind his apparent 'gun-ho' exterior.

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 20:58 (Ref:216730)

Quote:

Originally posted by Gt_R
But while aggresive and desire to overtake is encouraged, silly attempts of senseless overtakings should not, like Button in 2001 Monza, or Jacques in 2000 Canada.

or dare i say, TGF on JPM, austria '01!?

Don K · 15 Feb 2002, 21:16 (Ref:216744)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v
or dare i say, TGF on JPM, austria '01!?

Was that the one in which Montoya pushed Michael off the track, because it was the only way he could prevent Michael from taking the lead?

SILVERS95 · 15 Feb 2002, 21:21 (Ref:216748)

no way....he was right on the limit under braking.....and anyway..dont go quoting ethics when you talk about TGF

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 21:22 (Ref:216750)

Quote:

Originally posted by Don K
Was that the one in which Montoya pushed Michael off the track, because it was the only way he could prevent Michael from taking the lead?

being a JPM fan, i didn't see it as jpm pushing tgf of the track, that was an impossible move for tgf to attempt. i don't recall people saying that RAFE pushed TGF off the track at that very corner in '98, but what a good protecting manouver from an up and coming driver.

if tgf had used his BRAIN more, he would have realised, that he'd never have made it around the OUTSIDE, even if jpm had allowed it!!

you guys make me laugh......tgf can do NO wrong!

SILVERS95 · 15 Feb 2002, 21:23 (Ref:216752)

MR V...i agreee totally

paulzinho · 15 Feb 2002, 21:24 (Ref:216754)

With regards to TGF and JPM at Austria. It was a racing incident. It happens. 2 people really going for it. I respect them both for not giving in like DC at Monaco.

Mr V · 15 Feb 2002, 21:30 (Ref:216764)

Quote:

Originally posted by paulzinho
With regards to TGF and JPM at Austria. It was a racing incident. It happens. 2 people really going for it. I respect them both for not giving in like DC at Monaco.

it looks like you, me and silvers are the only ones who think so paul!

paulzinho · 15 Feb 2002, 21:36 (Ref:216773)

Well if that is so people should stop complaining of processional races because it seems that that is what they want!!

Drivers try and do something about it and get slated. I don't get it.

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