DTM 2023

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

ADAC F4 has more cars than the British grid
ADAC TCR has more cars than the British TCR grid. But then again my driveway has more cars then British TCR.

There's no F4 in Germany next season.

TCR UK has more cars than TCR Germany. Future of TCR Germany isn't clear, maybe there's no series next season.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by FIRE

There's no F4 in Germany next season.

TCR UK has more cars than TCR Germany. Future of TCR Germany isn't clear, maybe there's no series next season.

This is fair, although also a bit unfair. TCR Germany is around the same car count as TCR UK. But the fact the Germans will abandon a series that the UK thinks is healthy says a lot.

But back to the original point - especially when talking about GT3 - you're hard pressed to find a country, especially in Europe, with a stronger motorsport world. The UK is not it. German national series are filled with sportscar superstars.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But back to the original point - especially when talking about GT3 - you're hard pressed to find a country, especially in Europe, with a stronger motorsport world. The UK is not it. German national series are filled with sportscar superstars.

The point that's difficult to argue with.

Interesting thing though that glancing through a German forum I've seen comments that claimed Germany is far behind the UK in terms of world of motorsport.

[Huib]

Originally Posted by Matt K

The point that's difficult to argue with.

Interesting thing though that glancing through a German forum I've seen comments that claimed Germany is far behind the UK in terms of world of motorsport.

Outside of these couple big series the motorsport world in Germany isn't as big as some may think it is. The UK has so many championships, enthousiasts. It's very much more alive in the UK than it is in Germany. When it comes to manufacturers, and producing high level racing cars of course the Germans will win. But when you look at the racing scene as a whole, they're miles behind without a doubt

I think the mentality between both just is different. The UK has much more club and fun racing events. In Germany they strive much more to be as professional as possible on all fronts

But to get back on topic, I'm curious to see how DTM will evolve! I think ADAC acquiring DTM for sure secured it's future. I'm looking forward if they ever will look for a next step, beyond GT3, and what it'll be. Exciting times!

[FIRE]

With Ratel commenting on the takeover I get the impression DTM will keep GT3 cars in the next 3 to 4 years.

[Matt K]

Yeah, can't see them keeping GT3 cars any shorter than that. The question is, what is the long-term plan and strategy for ADAC? Do they intend to keep the status quo for the longer-term and see how the 'pyramid' works? Or do they plan to change the ruleset of the DTM in, say, 5-8 years timeframe? Will be interesting to see how it all goes. They've signalled DTM Electric may appear one day but merely as a support series and because of financing it's still a long way until the concept becomes viable.

Also, ADAC signalled that in the future they'd like to expand DTM calendar to 10-12 rounds and I'd be really happy with that but there are so many factors that make it difficult so can't see it happening in next 2-3 years to be honest.

[Bcarr6]

Looks like GT Masters and Prototype Germany are indeed going to be separated.

GTM gets 4 weekends with the DTM, 1 as headline, and 1 supporting Truck GP

TCR Germany survives but does get shifted partially to the ADAC Racing Weekends, same for the Prototype Germany.

[Matt K]

https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/d...hes-reglement/

Some details have emerged about the upcoming DTM season and it looks like DTM is set for a capacity grid of 26-28 cars as the interest is enormous - and entries should be completed by the half of February. What's interesting is that ADAC says they're talking with manufacturers that haven't been in the DTM before so perhaps Nicki Thiim-Aston Martin plans may materialise finally.

A bit shame that the 'Indy' restarts are gone, they spiced things up, although last season there were too many crashes because of that so all things considered, probably the decision to get rid of that is a good one.

I'm also curious about the points system - no info on that yet and I wonder if the one from GT Masters will be adopted. Personally, I think that would be a reasonable solution to have Top 15 points-scoring positions especially if there are close to 30 cars on the grid.

Rumours are circulating that Thomas Preining will join Manthey Racing - wonder if Bernhard stays in the DTM at all.

[GT3_Fan]

Glad to see the 2 by 2 restarts end. Too much risk for damage. "The Show" is not always about those split second shocking moments. Its about the whole 50 minute race. Maybe too many of us out there don't get that.

[FIRE]

Engstler Motorsport joins DTM in 2023. Together wil loyal sponsor Liqui Moly the German team enters at least one Audi R8 GT3, probably driven by Luca Engstler (Audi customer driver). Project manager is former DTM driver Manuel Reuter. Next weekend they have their Audi debut in the GT Winter Series at Jerez.

Source: http://autosport.nl/klasse/nieuws/37...s-dtm-met-audi

[FIRE]

https://www.engstler-motorsport.de/n...-team-engstler

Two Audi R8 GT3 cars.

[Matt K]

Haven't seen it being confirmed, the only official announcement I've seen was that Engstler Motorsport will start in GT3 championships but without saying which ones.
Although it is expected DTM should be among them - Luca Engstler is an obvious choice for a driver if there's just a single car but if there are two, there are rumours about Marius Zug in the second Audi.

And all of that comes amid Rosberg's and Attempto's struggle for the commitment to the DTM because of lack of details from Audi about the level of their manufacturer involvement. I understand Abt is quite safe either because of their closer affiliation with Audi or because of their better sponsorship situation (or both). However, for Rosberg and Attempto - if Audi doesn't commit to a stronger support (and they feel Audi isn't in much of a rush of confirming any details) they might as well be out of the DTM.

So potentially we'll have Abt and Engstler as official Audi teams in the DTM this year.

[Bcarr6]

BMW’s hand is revealed for 2023, a modest 3 car entry between Schubert and Project 1, but 3 drivers who can definitely fight for the title.

Only other absolutely confirmed drivers are the two Porsche guys, will add Engstler to this list too.

Given the entry process is wrapped up now I imagine there will be a lot of announcements in the coming days

DTM 2023 - 5 Cars

Project 1 - BMW M4 GT3 - Marco Wittmann
TBC - Porsche 911 GT3 R - Dennis Olsen
TBC - Porsche 911 GT3 R - Thomas Preining
Team Schubert - BMW M4 GT3 - Sheldon van der Linde
Team Schubert - BMW M4 GT3 - Rene Rast

[Bcarr6]

Correction, there will be a second Project 1 car with driver TBC

I think BMW's 4 car commitment is probably going to be on par with what other manufacturers go for this season.

4 BMW's
4 Audi's
4-6 AMG's
2-4 Porsche's
2-4 Lamborghini's
0-2 Ferrari's
0-2 Aston Martin's

If we take the low end estimates there we are at about 18-20 cars, I imagine the rest of the field will then be made up of privately funded cars in Audi's and AMG's

[Matt K]

Well, there's a big question mark about Audi. Assume ABT is there with two cars, Engstler perhaps with two as well. What about Rosberg and Attempto? Just a few days ago they said they have no clue about Audi's involvement so somehow I can't see them entering.
As for Mercedes, we might expect quite a strong representation, I'd say 6 cars at least.
With Porsche there are rumours about Manthey, Bernhard wanted to expand to two cars, not certain about SSR, they were allegedly evaluating brand change for 2023.
Can't really see Ferrari in unless with Emil Frey who (correct me if I'm wrong) switched from Lambo to Ferrari.
I can imagine there will be around 24 cars this year but that's just my assumption.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Haven't seen it being confirmed, the only official announcement I've seen was that Engstler Motorsport will start in GT3 championships but without saying which ones.
Although it is expected DTM should be among them - Luca Engstler is an obvious choice for a driver if there's just a single car but if there are two, there are rumours about Marius Zug in the second Audi.

And all of that comes amid Rosberg's and Attempto's struggle for the commitment to the DTM because of lack of details from Audi about the level of their manufacturer involvement. I understand Abt is quite safe either because of their closer affiliation with Audi or because of their better sponsorship situation (or both). However, for Rosberg and Attempto - if Audi doesn't commit to a stronger support (and they feel Audi isn't in much of a rush of confirming any details) they might as well be out of the DTM.

So potentially we'll have Abt and Engstler as official Audi teams in the DTM this year.

DTM is indeed not official confirmed but the autosport.nl piece is written by René de Boer, a reliable journalist with close connections to DTM.

[GT3_Fan]

I'm sure DTM numbers will easily go over 20 cars. I hope that involve at minimum of 7 different manufacturers though. 6 last year was ok (german and italian marks). So yeah if we can keep those and get something else (aston from what I am reading) then that is great news. Would be even more awesome if someone can enter a McLaren and/or an Acura.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by FIRE

DTM is indeed not official confirmed but the autosport.nl piece is written by René de Boer, a reliable journalist with close connections to DTM.

Alright, get that, good to know!

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

I'm sure DTM numbers will easily go over 20 cars. I hope that involve at minimum of 7 different manufacturers though. 6 last year was ok (german and italian marks). So yeah if we can keep those and get something else (aston from what I am reading) then that is great news. Would be even more awesome if someone can enter a McLaren and/or an Acura.

As for other brands, somehow I can imagine Aston being there, Ferrari maybe as well but McLaren, let alone the likes of Acura/Corvette etc seem rather inconceivable for me. But we'll see - and rather soon!

[Bcarr6]

Curious if Emil Frey go with the DTM in their new Ferrari's, so far the indications have been GTWC, GT Masters, or maybe DTM. They are probably the only real chance of seeing Ferrari present.

Between Engstler, ABT, Rosberg, Attempto, I think its pretty safe to say we will likely see 4 cars minimum from Audi. I know that camp is a bit shakey, but with 4 teams in the mix wanting to run 2 cars each theres got to be a good chance of at least 4 cars appearing.

Porsche I think is an interesting one, probably Bernhard and Manthey, 1-2 cars each. I highly expect SSR to have already acquired different cars.

PROsport are probably the only slim hope for Aston Martin to be there, I know Nicki Thiim is desperate to get a AMR car involved, but it'd be a wildcard like TF Sport or someone if it happened I think

Mclaren, next to no chance, Optimum have made their commitments clear already, JP Motorsport are sticking with GTWC Sprint, Garage 59 with GTWC Endurance.. There just isnt an option.

Honda, well those cars barely run.

The word is it'll be a capacity grid at 26-28, but I just dont see the numbers on that yet. I guess itll be more like 22

[GT3_Fan]

Originally Posted by Bcarr6

Curious if Emil Frey go with the DTM in their new Ferrari's, so far the indications have been GTWC, GT Masters, or maybe DTM. They are probably the only real chance of seeing Ferrari present.

Between Engstler, ABT, Rosberg, Attempto, I think its pretty safe to say we will likely see 4 cars minimum from Audi. I know that camp is a bit shakey, but with 4 teams in the mix wanting to run 2 cars each theres got to be a good chance of at least 4 cars appearing.

Porsche I think is an interesting one, probably Bernhard and Manthey, 1-2 cars each. I highly expect SSR to have already acquired different cars.

PROsport are probably the only slim hope for Aston Martin to be there, I know Nicki Thiim is desperate to get a AMR car involved, but it'd be a wildcard like TF Sport or someone if it happened I think

Mclaren, next to no chance, Optimum have made their commitments clear already, JP Motorsport are sticking with GTWC Sprint, Garage 59 with GTWC Endurance.. There just isnt an option.

Honda, well those cars barely run.

The word is it'll be a capacity grid at 26-28, but I just dont see the numbers on that yet. I guess itll be more like 22

I feel we have gotten to a point where now GT WC Sprint and DTM are depleting one another, and we will get less than stellar grids in each one. I can handle GT3 race with 15 to 20 cars if there are 7 or more manufacturers represented within that. My issue with GT WC Sprint last year was it was an Audi and Mercedes festival. DTM was fine in 2022. For 2023 however reading the messages posted here in past few days is getting me less optimistic.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

I feel we have gotten to a point where now GT WC Sprint and DTM are depleting one another, and we will get less than stellar grids in each one. I can handle GT3 race with 15 to 20 cars if there are 7 or more manufacturers represented within that. My issue with GT WC Sprint last year was it was an Audi and Mercedes festival. DTM was fine in 2022. For 2023 however reading the messages posted here in past few days is getting me less optimistic.

DTM 2023 is probably going to end up 22-24 cars, GTWC Sprint is already at 20+ cars confirmed, so will likely settle around 26-28.

I wouldnt say that is necessarily either being depleted, however, both series are going to see slightly less emphatic factory support this year, and that is probably more down to a number of manufacturers shifting focus to things lik LMDH than anything either series is doing themselves.

I do tend to agree that GTWC Sprint and DTM is too much, from a fans perspective though. Add in GTWC Endurance, GT Masters, GT Open, British GT, Italian GT, IMSA, GT Cup, GTWC Aus, GTWC Asia, the list goes on for places to race GT3 cars...

On an ideal top tier in Europe, i'd like to see GTWC focus more on Endurance racing, with an 8 or so Endurance race season replacing the Sprint/Endurance combination currently, thus leaving DTM free to be top tier all PRO sprint racing.

Then you have GT Masters, Brit GT, GT Open, Italian GT, as the next tier down, with a Pro Am focus...

[Matt K]

With the DTM grid is kind of curious, ADAC was adamant the interest is enormous and there was a talk of some teams being barred from joining the DTM because of lack of space on the grid as well as lack of quality ADAC needs for the DTM.
ADAC has also said they're happy with the registration process for DTM and given their goal is around 26-28 cars there's no reason not to believe in what they're saying.

However, putting some bits and pieces together there's a feeling there might not be actually as many teams as previously thought.
DTM under ADAC is not as affordable as some thought and assuming 4 cars per manufacturer, we have a small-ish grid given it's unlikely there are manufacturers other than Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lambo, Porsche and maybe Ferrari thrown in the mix.


As for the GTWC Vs DTM thing I fully agree, DTM is German but still international so with GTWC and DTM we have top international GT3 championships and the difference between them is rather small. Would be a great idea if GTWC focused more on endurance racing while DTM on 'sprint touring car-ish' one given they're already unique in the one-driver-per-car format.

Well, at the end, ADAC was so critical of Berger when he went for GT3 but now it's them who run the GT3 DTM so the ball is in their court now to show this can work well.

[Matt K]

https://www.motorsport-total.com/dtm...rgeht-23020801

Looks we might be more pessimistic than the situation really is, although it's worth mentioning the registration process didn't mean paying the fee, some of the teams didn't/couldn't specify drivers so that probably means not all of the registered parties are 100% certain of actually making it to the start and in theory may not race after all, if I understand this correctly.
But ADAC wants to put together the starting field as early as next week so perhaps we'll be having lots of announcements soon - or ADAC will even publish the entry list, don't know how realistic is that though.

[Bcarr6]

Looking forward to being pleasantly surprised!