TVR Griffiths 200/400 and their Chassis Numbers

[John Turner]

Again, thanks all. Of course, I think the Mongoose was the earliest of the V8 engined TVRs raced (Buick 3.5, I seem to recall), certainly of that shape, anyway, and is a historic race car in its own right.

Right, we have chassis no. 03/200 (thanks, Terry). Anyone know any of the others? I'm hoping that Louise and Mark, at least, will catch up with this thread soon!

Terry, any chance of persuading Jim Lowry to join us and share his info?

[Jeremy Hall]

The situation relating to International History is currently resolved on the basis that the car was homologated. The overview on International use wasato ensure that the car at a given point in time complied with -demonstrably- the appendix K of the period. There are one or two odd ball cars which were homologated without being used internationally-the Gilbern I think is another .Thus the homologated specification re-assures, as it were, the powers that be as to its suitability.
That having been said I understand that there is now very great interest being shown in the mechanical/suspension specifications of some if not all of the cars currently being raced.
The Nick van Giels car is the ex Chris Schirle car which was raced about four years ago by the Belgian whose name escapes me right now.

[LAK]

Hi John and all - happy New Year. Just caught up with 10/10ths after some while.

We are very proud to own chassis number 023 which is a US 200 car. It was sold out of the Ford dealer in Alaska in 64 or 65 and stayed there for 25 years or so. The second owner street drag raced it and ice raced it sometime in the late 60's/early 70's. After a shunt in the 70's it was stored outside until the late 90's when a Californian Jag specialist bought it to prepare it for vintage racing. He had to wait until the Spring to collect it due to the ice and snow!

The Californian spent lots of time and money getting the car to near concourse spec and racing it at Laguna Seca, LA, Willow Springs etc. We took the car off his hands in 2001 and have raced it since that time.

Re it's spec, it does not have FIA papers but is probably one of the most standard Griffs you'll find racing. No wide arches, large wheels, electronic ignition, non-period block, huge manifolds etc. We run with a fully carpeted interior although have taken the spare seat out. The car is fully road legal and has just made it through yet another MOT.

The reason we haven't got FIA papers is that it runs the Ford Granada uprights, which were allowed for many years by the FIA, right up to the point we were going to put our papers in (early 2002 I think). We've made the decision to stick with the uprights rather than go back to trunions from a safety aspect. Even then, we've had some failures....

Engine is to FIA spec but we have fairly small manifolds as we don't want to cut into the foot well to stick anything bigger on - it's already tight in there. It probably has about 320-350bhp - most of the FIA cars are running 400+ bhp and certainly need the bigger wheels and tyres (and wheel arches).

We've raced it with Top Hat, HSCC HRS (race winner), Heritage GT and other events including Daytona in 2007. After a year in the garage, it's now ready to run in some CSCC events in 2009.

BTW, Laurence Bailey has sold his orange Griff and I hear that the rebuild has restarted. Laurence now has a fantistic 65 Corvette which he'll run with CSCC.

Hope this is helpful.

[John Turner]

Excellent info, thanks, Louise.

Well, Alaska is next to Canada, right? Actually, can you think of a less likely State than Alaska to sell such a car in, during the 1960s (or now, even) ?

[terence]

According to Chris,thier all ex his! Thanks for the up-date Jeremy,I would assume that Rear Up-rights are a focal point?

[terence]

Originally Posted by LAK

............... Re it's spec, it does not have FIA papers but is probably one of the most standard Griffs you'll find racing. No wide arches, large wheels, electronic ignition, non-period block, huge manifolds etc. We run with a fully carpeted interior although have taken the spare seat out. The car is fully road legal and has just made it through yet another MOT.

The reason we haven't got FIA papers is that it runs the Ford Granada uprights, which were allowed for many years by the FIA, right up to the point we were going to put our papers in (early 2002 I think). We've made the decision to stick with the uprights rather than go back to trunions from a safety aspect. Even then, we've had some failures....

Engine is to FIA spec but we have fairly small manifolds as we don't want to cut into the foot well to stick anything bigger on - it's already tight in there. It probably has about 320-350bhp - most of the FIA cars are running 400+ bhp and certainly need the bigger wheels and tyres (and wheel arches).

............

I understand the cooling system is now sorted Louise?
Where on earth did you get the front trunnions from?.

[LAK]

Hi TB. Cooling been sorted for some time thanks and it ran brilliantly at Daytona heat wise. No trunnions for us - still got the Chris Schirle uprights/hubs etc. I'd be very interested in finding out what trunnions people are using and how often they check them etc.

[GORDON STREETER]

I know it ain't a Griffiths 200/400 but what was that 5000 that Pete Wheeler raced with us last year in the Heritage ? I know it looked a "Bitsa"

[Jeremy Hall]

Just to clarify the Granada upright situation. About five years ago I was asked whether the Granada upright was legal, replied of course not and was then told all the TVR's were running them. By chance I was on a local trading estate in Martock Somerset doing something else and stumbled upon an organisation called the Granada centre. I went in and asked if they had any Granada front uprights. I was asked whether I wanted the early or the late type, and now flummoxed replied that I wanted them for my TVR Griffiths.
Ah, goes the man you want early types, sorry we have none of those and any we get we have a standing order from a man called Chris Schirle !!
I then went to the Oldtimer GP and we looked at all the TVR to find only one with the correct front suspension -but he had roller rockers. I then had a huge row with the German scrutes who wanted the roller rockers excluded before the event whilst I wanted them excluded afterwards so I could show the stewards right and wrong on the uprights.
Sadly despite this the FIA stewards did nothing on the day and took a year to deal with the issues which arose whilst a Griffiths which I knew to be wrong won the FIA championship.
The joys of it all you will never know.........

As an aside I hear all this safety stuff about Griffiths, it is probablty true, but if the car is not safe don't race it , it is not obligatory. In thirty years in Historic eligiblity I have yet to meet a competitors safety modificatiuon which makes a car slower.

[terence]

Originally Posted by LAK

Hi TB. Cooling been sorted for some time thanks and it ran brilliantly at Daytona heat wise. No trunnions for us - still got the Chris Schirle uprights/hubs etc. I'd be very interested in finding out what trunnions people are using and how often they check them etc.

They are having to use the Stanpart Herald originals,some are using the GT6 versions with the thicker stub axles but the problem is in the bottom bronze swivvle,not the stub.Two races maximum before crack testing,possibly four before replacing the bottom joint depending on race duration.
Jeremy obviously types faster than I!I think the biggest "Safety Issue" is with the Rear Uprights,they are getting old and brittle and impossible to find these days,hence the reason for the fabricated ones we did at CMS,no speed difference,just nice to know you could do a race with all four still in touch with the car.
Fairly similar situation to non-homologated MGB wheels?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

I know it ain't a Griffiths 200/400 but what was that 5000 that Pete Wheeler raced with us last year in the Heritage ? I know it looked a "Bitsa"

Gordon, these cars do not seem to be well documented in TVR books but the 5000M driven by Peter Wheeler was one of 10 part built 3000Ms sent to Canada in 1970 and fitted with Ford V8 289 engines (nothing new there, then!). (Source - EVO 124).

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by terence bower

They are having to use the Stanpart Herald originals,some are using the GT6 versions with the thicker stub axles but the problem is in the bottom bronze swivvle,not the stub.Two races maximum before crack testing,possibly four before replacing the bottom joint depending on race duration.

I am aware of the weight difference but I can't recall an Elan having the same problem, Road or track. They must just cope (typical Colin Chapman) !

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Gordon, these cars do not seem to be well documented in TVR books but the 5000M driven by Peter Wheeler was one of 10 part built 3000Ms sent to Canada in 1970 and fitted with Ford V8 289 engines (nothing new there, then!). (Source - EVO 124).

Did Uncle Tom find it for him

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

They are having to use the Stanpart Herald originals,some are using the GT6 versions with the thicker stub axles but the problem is in the bottom bronze swivvle,not the stub.Two races maximum before crack testing,possibly four before replacing the bottom joint depending on race duration.
Jeremy obviously types faster than I!I think the biggest "Safety Issue" is with the Rear Uprights,they are getting old and brittle and impossible to find these days,hence the reason for the fabricated ones we did at CMS,no speed difference,just nice to know you could do a race with all four still in touch with the car.
Fairly similar situation to non-homologated MGB wheels?

Funny that Terry I understood the real problem was that the hole for the quill shaft to go through on the original meant that the modern engine power needs a larger quill shaft so a larger hole in the newly fabricated rear upright ''On safety grounds'' solved the problem

[esper]

The Niek van Gils Schirle build TVR Griffith was once owned by Serge van Havre who did FIA GT with it in the 90ties
Does anyone know who ownes another TVR Griffith by Schirle which was raced by Carl Roslund from Finland in 2002 . It was owned by Jos Koster (NL) in the nineties.
And then we had this strange BRG/Nato green griffith 400 raced by a german round 2000.
But in this list do we talk about the real 1965 griffiths or are continuations
included as well? we could end up with 2 cars on one number from time to time................
And then we have ofcourse king Frits Kremers Griffith which ofcourse won the Spa 6 hours in 1995. .......................should be in the list It looks like a griffith like they all do but are they like the sixties griffiths.....

[John Turner]

Found in a garage, January of last year, for £1200! Apart from the obvious TVR link, there is another link to this thread as apparently Wheeler, who wanted to do the Heritage GT series in a TVR, couldn't fit his tall frame into .... the earlier Griffith body (same source).

Edit - this in response to Gordon's #38.

[Jeremy Hall]

I understand that a totally un altered Griffiths turned up in the paddock at Spa last September and that a complete set of photos and dimensions were taken from the car to be used once and for all as the definitive suspension layout/dimension/pick up points for the car from here on in.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Found in a garage, January of last year, for £1200! Apart from the obvious TVR link, there is another link to this thread as apparently Wheeler, who wanted to do the Heritage GT series in a TVR, couldn't fit his tall frame into .... the earlier Griffith body (same source).

I'd go along with that, I'm 6ft 2in and Pete towers above me

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Funny that Terry I understood the real problem was that the hole for the quill shaft to go through on the original meant that the modern engine power needs a larger quill shaft so a larger hole in the newly fabricated rear upright ''On safety grounds'' solved the problem

Ah,yes,well------ But seriously[belive it or not] The rears suffered because of the bottom location pin,the material,ie,cast alloy used to crack baddly and the pin would escape!
Esper,the King Fritz car was the first Joe Ward car.Cant for the life of me remember the chassis number though.Then of course there was the other car we looked after for Michael Hess,it was timed at 178mph down Dottinger Hohe,then the roof blew off because Michael opened his window!!

[John Turner]

esper, I'm after all of them in regards to info. It doesn't surprise me that some are not exactly original, but this thread was never intended to be a witch hunt to expose those, but it would be good to document them all wouldn't it? These cars just interest me greatly and if during the course of this we get chassis nos etc, all the better.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

I understand that a totally un altered Griffiths turned up in the paddock at Spa last September and that a complete set of photos and dimensions were taken from the car to be used once and for all as the definitive suspension layout/dimension/pick up points for the car from here on in.

Not one to go through the CMS worshop then? Wonder if Jim needs any pointers,does he know about the double adjustable shockers? Dead give away really,they were in FIA satin black.

[andrewc]

My father used to have wide body Tuscan V8 which was raced in the HSCC Novice Championship in 1988 (from memory). It was bought in the States and was the subject of 2 or 3 articles in Supercar Classics detailing the purchase, collecting, the journey back to the UK and the race preparation

It was upraded to HSCC Improved Road Sports but wasn't improved enough to be competitive in IRS, and too modified for Standard Road Sports. Rather than convert back to road use, my father swapped with the then current owner of the Colin Skeaping stuntman Griffith OUU4F who was planning on race preparing his car at the same time my dad was contemplating putting his Tuscan back to standard.

This was kept for a number of years and appeared on a Top Gear TVR special on TV as well as Autocar. This was kept for number of years before selling it. It came up for sale at Don Law and somewhere else subsequently. Its been converted to a racer as well which is a bit of a shame as its always a one way process and it was a lovely example of a standard road car

He bought another Griffith a few years ago.

[terence]

Very interesting,I have OUU 4F up for sale at the moment.It is not an out and out racer though,with a few minor mod's it could be though.

[andrewc]

OUU4F was totally standard when it left our care. It was traded in for a factory built Caterham 7 + cash with Sherwood Restorations in Nottingham.

A few years later at the Birmingham NEC classic car show on a trade stand - I can't recall the company but they used to have full page ads in the glossy mags (green page background).

Fast forward a couple of years, and we saw it in Don Laws advert - I think he had a full page advert just for this car. I knew it was being turned into a racer because the owner was in contact via Spadge Hopkins at Ginetta specialists Cottage Classics (now Ginetta Heritage)

Last time I saw it in the flesh it was a really lovely car that was just right. The stuntman history is true, my father contacted Skeaping to discuss it. My father always regretted selling it and set about finding another.

[terence]

Fascinating stuff,Don did do some racing with it,it was him who installed the Rear Roll Hoop.He had been thinking about buying it back for Justin but they just have too many cars and commitments for this coming season.