Stand Up!!

[numbersix]

I really don't like the idea of marshals sitting whilst on duty - repeat - whilst on duty. I have no problem with marshals taking time out, (indeed we should do it more often) but to me they are then off-duty and should sit somewhere safe and away from their normal positions behind as much protection as possible, like on the lee side of a well built post or up by the spectator area, or wherever it is reasonably safe (if there is such a place during a race). Perhaps the Spaniards were in a safe place, or perhaps they were resting, but on duty? Not in my book.

[White flag man]

If I'd had been marshalling at that race, I might have wanted to sit down too

[EvilPumpkin]

Ok - Al's been trying to make a point here that has been studiously ignored.

Has anyone in this thread actually marshalled Barcelona? Anyone a member of a Spanish marshalling club?

If not, then you don't know what they're trained to do or how they're trained to do it.

I've never worked (nor do I ever intend to work) an F1 - but it's my understanding that the instructions from the tower are pretty specific about what they want the marshals to do. So obviously the FIA stewards were ok with marshals sitting down and not wearing long sleeves etc. If they're ok with it, then that's all anyone needs to know.

Are they marshalling to BMMC standards? Probably not. Are they members of the BMMC? Highly unlikely. So it has what to do with us? Nowt.

No issue with a discussion of standing up/sitting down/safety etc. and what is considered right or wrong and what we all think about that.

But you don't get to call them bad marshals since they're not covered by our standards or training.

[ascarracinguk]

at one poin i actually niticed 2 marhals playing footbl behind the catch fencing later on in the race, both me and mum noticed it and laughed...shows how interstedthey were once the spantard went out LOL

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I really don't like the idea of marshals sitting whilst on duty - repeat - whilst on duty. I have no problem with marshals taking time out, (indeed we should do it more often) but to me they are then off-duty and should sit somewhere safe and away from their normal positions behind as much protection as possible...

Agree entirely with numbersix on this,although we are all unpaid amateurs,it doesn't look very professional,regardless of which circuit or meeting being attended

[Lord Summerisle]

I would not rely on any of our Proban overalls to be 'fire proof' - they are not - they are flame retardent, that is - they will char rather than melt, and can survive intack a 800°C flame from a short distance for a short time.
Its also worth thinking about what you wear under the suit - no good wearing the proban 'for protection' is you wear a polyester teeshirt and shell suit trousers underneth

[malrsq]

Firstly in answer to the question, "did anyone watch the race or watch the marshals in action or not", brings me to mention, that, this is precisly why I watch many of the events. Yes I watch for marshals actions, recovery techniques, clothing types, and how marshals operate. Naturally I observe the racing, but I draw a lot from watching you guys and ladies and lessons I take from these events, I apply to our training or on track operations. It was this power of observation that gave me the foresight to use Manitou telehandlers at our New Zealand round of the A1GP. We have used them for Jet Sprint boat recovery and watching the F1 and other European racing I see them used to great effect, plus being at Melbourne F1 I have seen them there also.
Marshals sitting. NO WAY Hos'e/Jos'e whatever... Between races even is a bad look but understandable. One can never predict with certainty what will happen and where a car/boat/bike will end up, so be the good boy scout and be prepared for anything is my/our motto. I gues it helps when I make our rules, but I do not condone sitting at a marshal point during racing.
Harv makes good points, as do you others, keep the chat going, we all can learn from it.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Ok - Al's been trying to make a point here that has been studiously ignored.

Has anyone in this thread actually marshalled Barcelona? Anyone a member of a Spanish marshalling club?

If not, then you don't know what they're trained to do or how they're trained to do it.

I was with you EP!

As for doing better at Kovi's car - I'm not sure what else they could have done? The car was clearly stuffed way in under the conveyer belt and the tyres, even with all the bodies they had they couldn't shift it. There was lots of signalling to the JCB driver - he presumably isn't going to move until he's told to by Race Control (quite properly) but that has to be hugely frustrating if you're standing trackside with the field going past at unabated speed with potentially a very seriously injured driver that you can't get at. I wouldn't have wanted to be in their shoes.

The Ortelli incident was scary as hell - we were in the middle of a huge rainstorm and the Sky picture was cutting in and out and suddenly it came back on with what was left of the car - it looked like a bomb scene. According to the reports last night Ortelli has a broken ankle but not much more in which case I imagine he considers himself one very lucky bunny.

Some very lucky drivers around this weekend...

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

at one poin i actually niticed 2 marhals playing footbl behind the catch fencing later on in the race, both me and mum noticed it and laughed...shows how interstedthey were once the spantard went out LOL

Didn`t want to mention that as i thought i was seeing things,glad you brought it up.
But instead at looking at all the negative things they done,
Why not look at the positive things they done,esp if its something that we don`t do/use over here.
I would start off but can`t think of anything.......

[zakeriath]

Adding to the list, anybody looked at the footware the marshals have on, looking at the pics in autosport they are all wearing trainers.

Is there any regs anywhere in the world as to what marshal may or not wear.

[numbersix]

I'm not sure about the rest of the world but here everything you are asked to wear is a recommendation, no more. Having said that I believe any Post Chief can insist that a marshal whose attire colour clashes too much with flags can be asked to change into something more suitable, and I expect the same would be true if the marshal was wearing something clearly inappropriate. I've seen UK marshals in trainers but don't forget that you can now get steel toe-capped footware that look exactly like trainers.
Of course, certain high profile events do provide kit for marshals to wear and extra dress codes.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I believe any Post Chief can insist that ......

Insist? No! We are ALL volunteers. I could ask/suggest but what gives me the right to insist?

[Richard Sneader]

There are many training points from this incidnet/ marshals etc both right and wrong. The thing I cannot work out is how the car ended so far into the wall no one could get to the driver quickly. Glad he was breathing at the time otherwise!!.
RS

[ascarracinguk]

i personally didnt think they handled the kovelinon incident very well either, i mean walking on top of the tyre wall when you know the driver is trapped underneath ain tehmost clever thing to do!

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i personally didnt think they handled the kovelinon incident very well either, i mean walking on top of the tyre wall when you know the driver is trapped underneath ain tehmost clever thing to do!

I seen something similar to that on a training day video earlier this year.
And that was from a uk circuit.

But coming over the tyre wall,the marshal probably wasn`t aware that the car had gone in so far.

Approx 140 mph,front left tyre/wheel/suspension collapsed,thats a good enuf angle to get under them tyres

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Insist? No! We are ALL volunteers. I could ask/suggest but what gives me the right to insist?

I presume your right comes from the fact that you are charge of the post? If you felt that safety was being compromised I suppose your call would be to the chief marshal or CoC and they would do the insisting?

[r.arthur]

Originally Posted by Grandslammer

Agree entirely with numbersix on this,although we are all unpaid amateurs,it doesn't look very professional,regardless of which circuit or meeting being attended

i agree martyn

[gravel_monkey]

wont go on about what has been mentioned but two things, in all fairness it aint just european marshals, i think it was canad last or 2 years ago and the marshal at the end of the pit lane had to move his deck chair for a car to retire!
2. i like the crash helmet thing especialy if it is a windy day on anglesey, they dont half keep you warm!

[danccooke]

As for the Kovi Incidident as has already been said. What do you do if you can't get to the driver. Other than try and signal that you really need that mani/tractor whatever, you know that he isn't going to move until RC say he can but you are going to signal all the same.
Yes Dee and I were amazed that they were in short sleeves and sat down, but looking at one of the longer shots it did look like they were some considerable distance from the circuit, at a slowish part of the circuit and also it looked like they has some significant height also. Does that make it right, no in my book it doesn't but remember how TV can make angles look different, look how flat paddock hill looks on TV.
Lets hope in 9ish weeks time non of us do anything that appears quite daft.

[zakeriath]

Originally Posted by danccooke

Lets hope in 9ish weeks time non of us do anything that appears quite daft.

I bet the Spanish marshals are just waiting now for early July, fingers ready on their keyboard, forums open just waiting for one of us to sit down, wear a tee shirt (although not much chance of that with our weather, probans add warmth as well), relax, play football, eat a pork pie, drink, etc etc. But most importantly they will all moan about "ow com the britz wear no ats, dont the crowd throw nothing at Fernado and miss, just like we do at amilton" which is the real reason they wear safety hats.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by zakeriath

I bet the Spanish marshals are just waiting now for early July, fingers ready on their keyboard, forums open just waiting for one of us to sit down, wear a tee shirt (although not much chance of that with our weather, probans add warmth as well), relax, play football, eat a pork pie, drink, etc etc. But most importantly they will all moan about "ow com the britz wear no ats, dont the crowd throw nothing at Fernado and miss, just like we do at amilton" which is the real reason they wear safety hats.

LOL!

[Hepatic]

I'd just like to say i thought they did as well as anyone could have for Heiki's incident. The tyres were 5 deep and didn't look easy to traverse at all. They would have had no idea where the car was or how deep it had gone, and when they got there they had nothing they could do to help the driver other than summon the JCB to help lift it.

But, and i don't mean to offend (but i probably will!), i don't subscribe to the "they belong to a different organisation / do things differently" way of thinking, not for personal safety anyway. Basic personal safety should be the same for anyone, no matter where they are marshalling in the world. I don't have a problem with resting on a long day, but there are lots of breaks for F1 and that means plenty of time to take some weight off. The team i saw at least 5 times during the F1, half of them were always sat down. I don't see any reason why anyone trackside and not in a box should see it "safe" to sit down during any race session. The turn they were at is very similar to the one Hamilton had a failure at the German GP last year - the gravel trap would do very little to stop a car like that, as Heiki proved.

Self preservation should always be the primary concern of any marshal, and sitting down is not helping you preserve your wellbeing. There is an old clip of an incident somewhere when a photographer is sat on a little stool and is almost collected by flying cars as he stumbles over it trying to get out of the way. It's the difference between sitting on a curb waiting to cross a busy road and being stood up. I'm sure others will see it differently and i don't have a problem with that, but wishing to marshal another day i feel quite strongly that no one trackside should be sat down while the track is live. Can't say i've even noticed it at other tracks, its just it stood out so much during this GP...

Dress code is harder to see fault with. If you are posted to go trackside in an incident then you should really be wearing full cover on arms and legs no matter what the weather. If you're flagging or observing then i don't see an issue with t-shirts etc - you shouldn't need to get close enough to the action to need full cover unless things go very pear shaped!!

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by danccooke

Yes Dee and I were amazed that they were in short sleeves and sat down, .

At this rate you`ll see them wearing fireproof Thongs......

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

There is an old clip of an incident somewhere when a photographer is sat on a little stool and is almost collected by flying cars as he stumbles over it trying to get out of the way.

Is that the one from Castle Combe ?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZfetO8bLUQ

[Stuart Hill]

Stand-Up???
Sit Down???

Run to Incident???
Let Accident finish first????


Watch this 2007 video and then make your own minds up.

Gt Crash

pause it @ 21 secs, make your decision, then play the rest.