(Super) road saloons - where are they now?

[R59]

Originally Posted by big andy

the Toyo's - which will join with Classic Thunder in 2007 is this correct

Confusion - it reins!

History lesson part deux....

BRSCC Super Road Saloons, became the Toyo Tyres Super Road Saloon series in 1990. The series evolved through 1991 with the inclusion of Limited Slip Diffs in the rules when it was deemed that it was difficult to tell if a car had a Torque Biasing Diff in it (ie: it passed the one wheel in the air test), without going to invasive strip-downs/sealing.
Then in 1992, the MoT regulations were tightened which meant that cars that met the SRS regulations could fail a MoT on the new tighter emissions regulations. Therefore, the car had to be capable of passing a MOT test, with the exception of the emission tests.
As I understand it, our "sister series" Slick50 Road Saloons still had to pass the MoT, and drive to/from the race meeting.

In 1994-5 the series was doing very well. With full grids of Class C cars, and full grids of A, B & D. By now the Toyo prize money was gone - a change of MD who wasn't into cars (how strange!), took the sponsorship money to his local cricket team (allegedly). Things were rosy.

I think it was 1996 or 7 when there were grumblings about the rules needing to be brought up-to-date to allow things that were common on production build cars, I can't remember the exact bits in need, but the upshot was a change to the engine classes, and a rule which would have ruled out many of the series stalwarts through the age of their cars. (They were thinking about the Castle Combe Series which had a 3 years out of production rule, and was full to the brim).

That killed it.

I can feel sour about that because I developed an engine which could give be a chance at being on-par with the 1800cc Fiesta's which dominated the series (Watson, Pearson, Robey, etc..) I ran it at three meetings, throwing it on pole at Lydden by a country mile, only to suffer a stupid fault which at a circuit with a pit-lane would have been fixed quickly (rear exhaust mounting rubber came off!). My 1763cc Nova was on the pace (when I managed to get the headgasket to seal - it was a prototype!). The capacity limits changed, with the idea of having up to 1600, 1600 to 2000, and 2000 an up (I think that's what it was).

They lost all of the Mk2/Mk1 Escorts, Sunbeams, and the Mk1 Fiesta's from Class C, just about everyone from Class B, and most of Class A.

They created a "interim" class for the old Class C 1800's for 1998.

In 1999 it because the "Ripspeed Super Road Saloons" and continued to die.
I remember seeing reports with 6th: Joe Blogs.. no other finishers.... on more than one occaision.

Denis - would you like to continue.

Whether a "traditional" Road Saloons series would work is difficult to say, like Tim said, Track Days are so much easier than getting messed up with ARDS, MSA rules & regs, etc...

I do feel that the ethos behind Slick50 Road Saloons, and Super Road Saloons pre-rule "improvements" was right, and if left alone, could still be healthy today.

Rob.

[nyssa7]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

John Martinson - VW Scirocco - Last seen in the northern series some time ago in a very scruffy sequential boxed Clio.

Simon Taylor - Honda Civic - Used to double on races with the Road Saloons. Last seen a year or so ago in the LMA Euro Saloons that absorbed Road Saloons after the BRSCC screwed that up as well.

Simon Taylor won the LMA Euro Saloons championship last year in his old Road Saloons Civic. Has done a couple of races this year in a Civic Type R

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by big andy

the Toyo's - which will join with Classic Thunder in 2007 is this correct

This is being discussed at the moment (a bit of an open secret!). The general feeling is the two series are a very good fit and, with a few compromises on both sides, would make one larger and very interesting place to run more modified saloon cars competitively but without excessive costs.

Seeing a minimum grid of 20 highly modified and very varied cars (FWD, RWD, saloons, coupe's, hatchbacks, Ford, Toyota, Pug's, Rovers etc etc etc) will hopefully persuade people to try it out and swell grids further.

There are some interesting and fairly original ideas proposed for the regs that will allow as competitive a class structure as possible.

Everybody I have spoken to is very enthused by what is proposed.

However, I must stress that nothing is official yet and also that I don't want to hijack this thread on the subject.

[greenamex2]

Rob, sorry I have to disagree with you.

Racing has 'evolved' beyond all recognition in the last 17 years I have been doing it.

Andy and Al's comments really summed it up. People don't mind spending their money on their cars which inevitably means more modified cars.

What they do mind is then getting very poor value for money on race day. In Super Road Saloons case this was demonstrated when half way through a season a set of proposed regs appeared that alienated well over half the field. If the BRSCC really believed that a bunch of club racers were just going to say "OK I'll throw away my now worthless car and build a new one" they were incredibly dumb. Personally I think it was just a ploy to get rid of us!

The problem is defining good/bad value for money.

Take DTRC for example. The regs allow very highly modified and expensive machinery to be created but it is staggeringly successful. Ironically the only series that is similar in terms of success is Stock Hatches, arguably at the very opposite end of the potential expenditure scale.

The likes of Super Road Saloons and Mod Prods sat/sit somewhere in the middle and have suffered smaller grids.

Maybe there are two markets developing. Highly modified and very lightly modified with little in between.

I'd agree that both Road Saloons and Super Road Saloons SHOULD be successful ideas, but they just don't seem to be.

[Al Weyman]

I think DTRC is really a race within a race and I doubt that this format will survive much longer as it will be forced to split. Basically more or less anything goes in Class A from Space framed HotRods to big engined Sports Cars and 4WD ex-WRC Rally cars. All the other classes are very similiar to Mod-Prods/Classic Thunder in fact I have seen guys interloping between the championships me included.

Now this is fine at the moment if you do not mind being lapped in a very short while by some of the monster machines in Class A (the novelty of that will wear thin, trust me) but I do believe that eventually the championship may become a victim of its own success (if not handled correctly) and grids will have to be split. Now when this happens I would say the logic split would be Class A runs in one race and all the others in the next. So what does this leave you with? Essentially two different championships which IMHO is exactly what it is. The Class A akin to Northern Saloons and the old Thunder Saloons and all the other classes with Mod-Prods and Classic Thunder.

Now something on trailering and a confession (I have told this before so bear with me). I totalled my Sunbeam Talbot Road Saloon at Oulton on the practice slowing down lap after being nerfed by an SDI (jealousy) after putting it on pole position. Anyhow watching the race and wondering how the hell I was gonna get the mangled wreck 250 miles down the M1 I got chatting to Brian Sheridan who's car had blown an engine and was in a similiar position. He asked me my thoughts on trailering and I said it sucks, he then suggested that if I could draw up a set of regs and offered some ideas (the now much copied multi-valves up a class was our innovation) he could get the sponsorship together and we could start a rival series. Which we did and it was very, very successful and that I have to confess was the first nail in the coffin of the drive to track Road and Super Road Saloons as many of their drivers came over to us especially as there was money to be earnt (good cash prize money and even a payment for finishing the first lap).

Also and please correct me on the details but I have strong recollections of a guy, a VW driver returning back from Brands after competing in a Road/Super Road Saloon race and no doubt with with shot tyres and brakes and having a nasty accident on the M25 (may even have been fatal). I am sorry and I know me and Tim who I have a lot of respect for, will never agree but IMO race cars must be trailered to and from the circuit and not to and encourage others to do the same is just downright irresponsible in this day and age of totally over subscribed roads.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

(the now much copied multi-valves up a class was our innovation)

Which had to subsequently be recinded to get more cars into Mod Prods and is also dissuading a number of multivalve cars from entering DTRC and Classic Thunder!

And where it was removed/never implemented the multivalve cars still failed to dominate over the dual valve ones.

[Al Weyman]

It was good at the time Dennis (88/89) and very innotive. Maybe not so relevant now I agree now every car that leaves the factory is a multivalve but back then and lets be honest most cars prepared for racing in the late 80's would already be at least 10 years old, multi-valves were for the exotica like BDA's etc. Championships and regulations mature and move on but trust me you have to be very, very careful when you implement what on the face of it can be seen as an innoxious rule change (eg. allow freedom of wheel diameters but restrict widths, that inturn allows the massive must have and ruddy expensive brakes and hugely expenive rubber band tyres, ever seen a mk1 Escort with 18inch rims, it looks ridiculous) as it can have devestating effects down the line which is why I thiink any merger with ModProds and CT has to be looked at very carefully. Also other rule changes like allowing a Rose Joint on the end of a TCA or coil overs can be seen as expensive and put people off entering but in reality are far cheaper than having an unlimited testing budget, hidden rose joints and various different length TCA arms and length springs to achieve the same thing. Same goes for glass fibre panels and at the end of the day we want to drive a fast modified car that handles really well don't we?

[greenamex2]

One thing that could be a good idea is a class system based on some form of points or weighting.

Something like x number of point per capacity, y number of points or or multiplier for number of valves/turbos/inlet type etc, z number of points for weight etc.

Obviously you would only include variables that could be easily verified.

Tap your figures into a spreadsheet and hey presto (a blue screen, sorry computer joke) you get your class.

If you wanted to race a near standard lumbering v8 monster cos it's cheap fun racing then you won't get stuck in the same class as a massively modified version.

Likewise if you have a multivalve car that weighs 140Kg more than your similar capacity dual valve competitors that keep beating you, you won't then get stuck up in the class ABOVE them and put up against even more powerful cars weighing 140Kg less than you.

Just an idea.

[Al Weyman]

Work out the details Dennis but don't forget things like tyres as well.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Work out the details Dennis but don't forget things like tyres as well.

I had thought of tyres, anything else?

[jonners]

plastic doors, boot, bonnet, windows etc - means cars can race but subject to a higher 'tariff'

also non standard throttle bodies (instead of carbs)

brakes - particularly rear drums swopped for discs??

dash removed??

wheel arches

wheel size

multi point weld in cage as opposed to basic bolt in

just a few ideas - could get over complex but i really like the idea and it would be great to encourage cars from other championships to join in

also what about, say, a seventies saloon carrying a lower 'tariff' than an eighties saloon??

how to distinguish cars in each class - what about seventies style rallcross different roof colour or big vinyl squares or something

low 'tariff' for cars driven to the circuit

getting carried away now - i think it's a great idea but could be recipe for never ending debate if there are too many criteria

back to the thread topic - does anyone remember Angela Hart?? Used to chat to her occasionally and she was going out with Jonathan Woodward - are they still racing?

John Newbold gave up completely and his red Lotus Cortina still 'exists' as a road car with a new shell and all the go faster bits removed...

I also remember the best sounding v6 Capri ever - a white one driven by ?? Derek Wileman?? That sounded fantastic

[tim dodwell]

Al - Yes I remember you and Brian spinning off to set up the mod-prods, and we (the ones who wanted to drive to our races) were actually very pleased, as it took away a lot of "discussions" that used to take up too much time. We were then able to point those interested in our Road Saloons, but wanted to trailer, over to your series. All happy!!!
Only one person I know had an accident going home from our races, it was on the M25 going west (late 80's/early 90's), and there were no real injuries (although his Golf was upside down up the bank). It was not his fault, some stupid moron caused the accident - he just got taken out. That can happen to us all in any vehicle, and I am sure that someone that goes on this forum will know of a car being trailered getting involved in an accident.
Methinks the strength of the DTRC is down to lower entry fees, and a more relaxed attitude to regulations - long may it continue, and driving to the races is allowed (yippee). We did chuckle when we saw the original Mod-prod rules stating that you could NOT drive to the circuit!!!

[Al Weyman]

I must admit Tim I have seen some pretty horrendous trailer accidents, the last on the way back from Pembrey last year and involved a long wheel base LandRover, and a huge inflatable boat, the whole lot was facing the wrong way on the M4, on its roof and the cab was flattened, I am sure a serious or fatal injury must have been the outcome. I even made a post here on the subject. Anyhow mandating the trailering was a way of appleasing you guys for your magnamanous and generous attitude to our flegling championship.

I remember Angela in the too heavy Cortina and Johnathon, and who can forget that great lady driver and her other half Lisa and Brian Cox. Now she would have won Formula Woman if they had let her have a crack at it!

I like this idea of letting differnt stages of car into one championship but I still think you may get a situation as in DTRC where the front runners are so so much quicker they are almost not in the same race. Is that what we really want at the end of the day?

[Ian Sowman]

How can you forget Lisa Cox?

Well, you can forget that her name is Ilsa, I suppose.

[R59]

Jonners, I'll make some enquiries through a convaluted route, may take a while as the jungle drums take time around Eastern Angela, errr I mean Anglia.

I remember wincing as I blasted up between the Cortina and the pit barrier when it bogged down during a start at Snetterton. It was a case of "don't hit that Cortina, it's mint!" I started the row behind, and it was the only gap available! You can squeeze a Nova Sport through a letterbox sized gap!!

Jon Woodward was last heard of working for TOMS, but since they've gone, I have no idea where he is now. Same jungle drums apply...

Don't watch this space, you'll gets spots before the eyes.

Rob.

[RoyG]

Originally Posted by racing59

Roy Gravestock - probably too old to race now (if that doesn't get the old git back out in a car, I dunno what will). Still spends his time navigating through the side windows of various Nova's with knobbly tyres, once ran as high as 3rd overall in the Circuit of Ireland rally when it snowed, and being Roy, he was on road tyres, when everyone else was caught out on slicks, came to an early demise taking avoidance of an earlier incident.

Compton - you cheeky scrote!! Despite getting a heating allowance this year I'm still playing this silly motorsport game! Not too old to race - it's that bloody stress-related ECG test that us old buggers need for racing that puts me off!!

Finally kicked the Nova habit after 21 years, at the moment building a Corsa 'C', mainly for Endurance Rallying, but also for a bit of Stage Rallying.

We've done the Lombard Revival Rally for the last 2 years (8th overall in 2005 with Tim "Mighty-mouth" Ball. Doing the 2006 Revival Rally in October.

Spoke to Richard "Mr Whippy" Gane tonight. He and Chris "No-idea" Adams (London cabbies extraordinaire!!) are now both Integra mounted. Richard is driving in the 24-Hours next week.

Anyway, best regards to any Toyo Tyres competitors of the early 90's.

Cheers,

Roy

P.S. Still using road tyres!!!

[MiniMadness]

Other names - Steve Pattison (Golf/Scirocco) I used to go to school with his son Jason (Golf mk2). I still see Steve down at Lydden.

Someone mentioned Lol Dyke in a Corolla GT wasn't it a FWD version ? Another driver to race the pocket rocket was Bob Hawkins. Great looking paint scheme red/white (same as my MR2 !!)

Derek Wileman also had a Vauxhall Cavaliar. Was his Capri blue/white with a X pack ?

What about all them fantastic Mitsubishi Lancers (Jeff Robinson/Simon Orr/Martin Tyman/Joe Macari)

And the most surprising of them all Roger Turner in a Lada Samara !!

[G.Walker]

I remember the red Vauxhall Firenza of Mostyn Rutter, last raced in the Group 1 touring cars.....

The Super Roads had huge grids, cars appearing and disappearing all the time. I remember James Baker is a potent Rover SD1, later sold to Andrew Turvey i believe, which appeared in Mod Prods.

Their was a load of Mistubishi Colt Lancer Turbos, Lotus Sunbeams (Kaye,Smirthwaite) and a Turbo Maestro pedalled by Colin Francis..

I think the regulations became dated, our firenza had to compete against light weight super quick 1900 Peaugot 205s in Class B (1900cc to 2300cc ..) an expensive task.

Is Ray Wests Manta still competing??

[R59]

Originally Posted by G.Walker

I remember the red Vauxhall Firenza of Mostyn Rutter, last raced in the Group 1 touring cars.....

The Super Roads had huge grids, cars appearing and disappearing all the time. I remember James Baker is a potent Rover SD1, later sold to Andrew Turvey i believe, which appeared in Mod Prods.

Their was a load of Mistubishi Colt Lancer Turbos, Lotus Sunbeams (Kaye,Smirthwaite) and a Turbo Maestro pedalled by Colin Francis..

I think the regulations became dated, our firenza had to compete against light weight super quick 1900 Peaugot 205s in Class B (1900cc to 2300cc ..) an expensive task.

Is Ray Wests Manta still competing??

The Jaimes Baker Rover was driven by Andrew Turvey who was his mechanic. I think the car was actually "owned" by David Baker, Jaimes' father, and Andrew drove it when Jaimes was too busy doing Autosport stuff.

As for the superquick 1900 Peugeots, it was a 25 year old Mk1 Escort that was the car to beat in the latter days of the "old rules".

Roger Turner - yes, very quick, but considering how much time he spent behind the wheel of that car, and the rally car he also had, he was "at one" with it.

Another name that appeared from time to time was Simon Gent, who's pedalling a Ka in the Ford Saloons. He first appeared hiring a drive in Graham Millwards Lotus, then later in a Fiesta.

Martin Tyman - yep he took to the Lancer route when the Rover that he and Roger Lott (of grass cutting Citroen AX fame in later years) shared passed on...

What was the chap's name who ran the Audi Coupe - I remember he came from Macclesfield...

Rob.

[sunbeam73]

Hi all,

Wow all those names brings it all back, I've still got all the results etc from when I was in Toyo SRS in the early to mid90s.
I used to race a Sunbeam Ti (No. 73) but had loads of problems blowing engines because of cooling problems and never really developed the car in the correct way. The racing was brilliant though, packed grids, close action and prize money too.
For some stupid reason I then converted the car to run in 750mc hothatch then realised that racing against fiestas with no metal left in the bodywork wasn't going to work really, the car was totally useless on the Yokos and the car had been smashed up a bit so I decided it needed a new shell.
Then I snapped up Vince Mitchell's Falken Mod Prod Sunbeam which had been festering in his garage for a few years and converted it to Hot Hatch spec - another mistake, hardly any faster. I then discovered on the internet CSCC Championships and bodged the car to Gp1 spec, buying panels and trim from Steve Quenby, turning up to its 1st outing at Snet in Sept99 just to test the water, the car and tyres were awesome and I smashed the lap record for class D, and decded this was the series to go for winning the class in 2000 and 2001 - 4th then 3rd overall. Friends I'd made in the series then went on to Kumho BMW's, I was persuaded to move on, part with my beloved Sunbeam for a Princely sum and build a 325i - ouch! Where did all my money go? Finally the car was finished (almost) in Sept 2002 albeit with a standard engine exhaust and gearbox - this would do for now. I raced it at Snetterton, something was wrong with the cooling system and I retired before things got too hot, then realised I was never going to have the money or the time to compete at this level so sold the whole lot and have never raced since.
I now have a family with two girls of 2yrs and 8 weeks, a hefty mortgage and no freetime or money to play with so that's that!

Good to read all the posts on this, for those that are still racing good luck!

Cheers.

Sean Cockrell

[sunbeam73]

and here's a few images,
will build the website one day![IMG]www.seancockrell.co.uk[/IMG]

[R59]

Hi Sean,

Nice pic with you in front of Graham Millward's Astra, and then Eric Crawley's Lotus at the Thundersaloon meeting at Snet (I could tell by the C-Fresh transporter behind...)

Didn't some ratbag nick your car (Sunbeam) from it's new owner?

Rob.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

How can you forget Lisa Cox?

Well, you can forget that her name is Ilsa, I suppose.

Ian I turned 58 the other week, you have to bear with me, of course it was.

[Al Weyman]

I think this post is getting confused with Mod-Prods, may of those names either entered both or were ModProds only.

What about all them fantastic Mitsubishi Lancers

Alan ZIni was one of the front runners, when that thing went man was it quick but invariable it failed.

Ray West's car is still around and sitting ready to go according to his prodigy and current very quick CTRCC Ascona runner Dave Hicton. I spoke with Ray at Thruxton, don't think much chance of him coming out as he would have to run in Classic Thunder as the CTRCC Group 1 rules do notallow in a Manta 400 in fact neither did Super Road Saloons (I believe) which is why Ray raced it with us in ModProds.

Derek Wileman did have a Capri and Cavalier (Turbo I believe) and used them both in ModProds before going over to the dark side (Castle Combe Saloons with their silly 3 litre limit)! His son Alan also raced with us (I think him or his name sake is currently running in the CTRCC BMW's not sure).

[MiniMadness]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Derek Wileman did have a Capri and Cavalier (Turbo I believe) and used them both in ModProds before going over to the dark side (Castle Combe Saloons with their silly 3 litre limit)! His son Alan also raced with us (I think him or his name sake is currently running in the CTRCC BMW's not sure).

That's interesting, I raced against Alan in his yellow BMW down at Lydden a couple of years ago. He had a good scrap with Liam Crilly, unfortunitely I broke my clutch that day. Another car that was racing, was one of them big Saab Turbo's that used to be a Road Saloon, but he planted it into the tyres at Paddock.