Champ Car 2007!!

[Mystery]

I'd like to think I'm not looking back at any golden era. It's just that I'm not looking forward to whatever CC is offering right now, and the answer of if you're not interested then go and watch something else is quite probably why everyone in the states is watching NASCAR. The series needs to learn something from this year and I really think it needs bigger grids so that a single 3-car accident doesn't wipe out a good fifth of the whole field.

[norman-normal]

Knowlesy, wake up! the foundation is Formula Atlantic.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Mystery

The series needs to learn something from this year and I really think it needs bigger grids

Genius.

More cars, I wish I would have thought of that as a solution.

The championship needs to make it viable for more cars to enter. Goods events, good tv and good racing. Once this is sorted more cars should (hopefully) start to come in.

[JohnSSC]

No, the Panoz is not a "Skippy machine" but as I stand by the "Barber on Steroids" comment.

As has been pointed out, there is 1.5 seconds or so gaping the field. I think that is far less an indicator of driver quality than it is an indicator of car equality. At this level, I am not looking for racing in equal cars. There are numerous, lower level series' out there from Karts to closed wheel to open wheel that provide equal cars. When you get to the top rung (if one could call OW - either Series that) then (imho) you want to see teams working all 3 components. The Team. The Driver. The Car. At this level there should be room for engine choices or aero/chassis development other than wing angles and suspension settings.

As far as enthusiasm on the boards here, that is a personal expectation each of us has, so lack of enthusiasm to one may not mean others find enthusiasm lacking as well. Plenty of other fora out there that are more (or less) enthusiastic about either Series.

However 'obvious" Knowlesy's thought about car count was, remember this was going to be the year for the increased count and the "limit" was placed on the field. So we are now down to a 17 car grid (19 seems like a lot, now) and due to the "quality" of the field both mechanically and behind the wheel we are routinely seeing 11 cars or less - usually less - running at the finish.

The "foundation" may well be F Atlantic, but that grid has had good years and bad ones. It is on the upside, but until CC figures out a way to get those teams to grow into CC teams it will remain a feeder series to Elsewhere.

I am going to have to pick up Olvey's book, Leighton...

[luke]

I just want to say what does 18 cars make so that's 1 car what difference does that make? (In IRL there are field fillers like Fisher, Duno etc who are at the back and off the pace - what do they add to the IRL race?)

To us 1 or 2 more cars means nothing. Sure its nice to have a bit of a bigger grid but what does it improve? So we can have a back marker at the back potentially crashing? I think the car count picking is just an excuse to have a dig at CC personally.

And this CC forum does lack enthusiasm. Go back a few years I was considered 'neutral' so to speak when I first joined compared to enthusiastic people. Boy do I miss the posts of Dov, Macdaddy, Liz etc all of them.

[JohnSSC]

Look, this is supposed to be a discussion of "CC 2007" and not whether Fisher and Duno are or are not field fillers.

As far as the "enthusiasm" part, it seems a bit unmannerly to post in a forum critical of those already posting there. There are other fora out there and some of them may give you the level of "enthusiasm" that you are looking for. Obviously, the conversation is more restrained here in that the focus tends to be on the series/racing rather than attempts to bad mouth individual posters. Further, I find these boards to be less biased than other boards that are more "fan based" or "fan focused" where most posters are either completely for or completely against one or the other OW series. Balance is a good thing for me and I find that here.

What I have always liked here, as opposed to places like CW, is that the "attack the post, not the poster" still means something. Some of the things I have read on those types of boards about the other members of those forums, or in some cases just folks who lurk there from time to time has underscored just what a good place Tenths is to have a conversation about racing.

Back to topic, yes, 17 is just one less than 18 (still remember my sums!) but the new car was trumpeted as the key to larger fields and there was to be a larger field THIS season (again). We were assured of that during the off season.

I don't know to which "us" you are referring where 1 0r 2 cars means "nothing," but I am thinking that a 20 car grid would be much more entertaining to me in that I like to see action on the track in general, not just one little knot of cars.

[Mystery]

Personally, I completely disagree that one or two cars means nothing. I welcome the likes of Duno, Fisher, Pastorelli and all the other grid filler you care to name. Having that variety amongst any series between the haves and the have nots is part of racing. Our very F1 world champion started in that series in one of those have-not teams so they do serve a purpose.

I don't necessarily care if there's only a handful of guys battling for the wins if the racing throughout the field entertaining and is shown to us on TV. Having bigger grids will aid that racing irrespective of the quality of the cars being added. It's why it is so hard for those grids to be bigger when there are many operations capable of running a team, were it not for the costs involved, that is the question that needs an answer.

[norman-normal]

The only cars that any one pays attention to are the front runners and a front runner who has suffered a temporary set back. The others are only interesting as an obstacle factor; exception: John&Indy, now that they have abandon the TV ratings, attendance, arguments, for what ever reasons.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Look, this is supposed to be a discussion of "CC 2007" and not whether Fisher and Duno are or are not field fillers..

I was not talking directly about the IRL just using an example about what difference do 1 or 2 drivers a lot slower make? None. No more action if they are way off the pace being lapped. That's why I believe its pointless bashing CC when there is 1 car less than what the IRL has. It makes no difference in terms of racing. You watch the front of the race and parts of the mid pack as it is. If they are way off the pace and being lapped they are adding nothing.

As far as the "enthusiasm" part, it seems a bit unmannerly to post in a forum critical of those already posting there. There are other fora out there and some of them may give you the level of "enthusiasm" that you are looking for. Obviously, the conversation is more restrained here in that the focus tends to be on the series/racing rather than attempts to bad mouth individual posters. Further, I find these boards to be less biased than other boards that are more "fan based" or "fan focused" where most posters are either completely for or completely against one or the other OW series. Balance is a good thing for me and I find that here.

John you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. This forum does lack enthusiasm. When was the last time you posted something positive about Champ Car? How I love reading the posts of fans who go to Champ Car races and enjoy the racing. They are enthusiastic people. This forum used to be filled with them now its dry because its just people picking holes at Champ Car. Constructive criticism, yeah fair enough but its the same old rants over and over. They are not as fun to read.

Back to topic, yes, 17 is just one less than 18 (still remember my sums!) but the new car was trumpeted as the key to larger fields and there was to be a larger field THIS season (again). We were assured of that during the off season.

No you were not assured. KK and friends were optimistic for 20 plus cars. But like I mentioned in the 1st post and its common knowledge, everyone had to buy new chassis this year when they were all using Lola's as old as 2001. If there will be any improvement in car count it will be in 2008 depending on how the market goes in Europe and other new markets. There will be wild card/s at Europe sponsors, drivers and possibly a team.

I don't know to which "us" you are referring where 1 0r 2 cars means "nothing," but I am thinking that a 20 car grid would be much more entertaining to me in that I like to see action on the track in general, not just one little knot of cars.

A 20 car grid changes nothing in terms of entertainment. 3 other cars at the back, the races on TV are at the front and show other battles if there are any. 1 or 2 extra cars would add very little in hindsight. It's just the bashers wanting to look for things to moan about.

So anyone going to any CC races in '07? I am going to the Euro swing can't wait!

[norman-normal]

[QUOTE=Luke

And this CC forum does lack enthusiasm. Go back a few years I was considered 'neutral' so to speak when I first joined compared to enthusiastic people. Boy do I miss the posts of Dov, Macdaddy, Liz etc all of them.[/QUOTE]


They have mostly gone to other forums and left us with a cadre of extremely negative souls who seem to be determined to stay until they have driven out all the fans.

If you look at numbers of daily post that keep dropping while attendance figures are rising. (Detractors 120. Moderators 0 )

[luke]

Most of the fans have been driven out but we are still here trying to enjoy Champ Car!

Roll on Edmonton.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by luke

No one is forcing you to watch Champ Car, don't like which is the sounds of things, don't watch it.

And I don't - not live anyways. I catch the replays later on now as there is usually an IRL or NASCAR race clashing. This week MotoGP clashes!

It's not a case of not liking it as such. I don't hate the series by any means. I want it to do well. It deserves so much better.

But right now it is heading towards "pants" status. Frankly it puts me in mind of Formula 3000 in its dying days.

It's all very well putting your head in the sand and saying everything is OK. The series is thriving. The "foundations are there". The last two races were "quite interesting". But it is not realistic.

I have tried to be positive for a few years now, but my positivity for Champcar has now been totally erased. It has plummeted to the status of least spectacular series in America, quite an achievement. All the heritage and roots are gone and the series is just trying to make the best of what it has got - trouble is, it has little.

Maybe I should post somewhere where criticism of Champcar is disallowed, maybe then I'll see the light. Well, as much as you can see the light with blinkers on.

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

The only cars that any one pays attention to are the front runners and a front runner who has suffered a temporary set back. The others are only interesting as an obstacle factor; exception: John&Indy, now that they have abandon the TV ratings, attendance, arguments, for what ever reasons.

Right so you're sure saying you'd be happy with a 10 car grid as long as they're all battling for the lead. Fair enough and that's your choice. I don't think it would be much of a spectacle I'm sorry to say.

Originally Posted by luke

A 20 car grid changes nothing in terms of entertainment. 3 other cars at the back, the races on TV are at the front and show other battles if there are any. 1 or 2 extra cars would add very little in hindsight. It's just the bashers wanting to look for things to moan about.

If that's your definition of a basher then I'm a basher and proud to be one. In fact, I'll bash F1 for no longer having 30 cars trying to qualify for a race; MotoGp for only running 18 bikes when they can scrape together heading for 40 in the 125s; IRL for needing to round up hobos to find 33 cars for Indy some years; Champ Car for having 17 car grids at all and finding this ok. Yeah ok - I'm a basher if that's what you want to call me but I'm an equal opportunities basher

I'd just rather have big fields so that a 10th place finish actually means something rather than simply being the second last finisher. It doesn't help in my view that series pay points down to 108th place either. Points should be an achievement - not a right

Here endeth the lesson

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

And I don't - not live anyways. I catch the replays later on now as there is usually an IRL or NASCAR race clashing. This week MotoGP clashes!

It's not a case of not liking it as such. I don't hate the series by any means. I want it to do well. It deserves so much better.

But right now it is heading towards "pants" status. Frankly it puts me in mind of Formula 3000 in its dying days.

It's all very well putting your head in the sand and saying everything is OK. The series is thriving. The "foundations are there". The last two races were "quite interesting". But it is not realistic.

I have tried to be positive for a few years now, but my positivity for Champcar has now been totally erased. It has plummeted to the status of least spectacular series in America, quite an achievement. All the heritage and roots are gone and the series is just trying to make the best of what it has got - trouble is, it has little.

Maybe I should post somewhere where criticism of Champcar is disallowed, maybe then I'll see the light. Well, as much as you can see the light with blinkers on.

Particularly like the - The last two races were "quite interesting" - great - let's sprinkle every track with oil so that it's a lottery. That'll make everything ok

[luke]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Right so you're sure saying you'd be happy with a 10 car grid as long as they're all battling for the lead. Fair enough and that's your choice. I don't think it would be much of a spectacle I'm sorry to say.
If that's your definition of a basher then I'm a basher and proud to be one. In fact, I'll bash F1 for no longer having 30 cars trying to qualify for a race; MotoGp for only running 18 bikes when they can scrape together heading for 40 in the 125s; IRL for needing to round up hobos to find 33 cars for Indy some years; Champ Car for having 17 car grids at all and finding this ok. Yeah ok - I'm a basher if that's what you want to call me but I'm an equal opportunities basher

Look re-read my first post, I have gone on record of saying what I don't like the low car count. I'd like to see more cars. But really at the end of the day it makes zero difference as I have stated above. And I did not call you a basher in person.

I'd just rather have big fields so that a 10th place finish actually means something rather than simply being the second last finisher. It doesn't help in my view that series pay points down to 108th place either. Points should be an achievement - not a right

Here endeth the lesson

Points are all the way down in IRL as well. MotoGP they are down quite away like 16th or something. Where's your beef with that? Exactly just a reason to typical moan at CC. This thread was fantastic until others 'ranting' on about for the millionth time on how they want CC to be. Don't like it, don't watch it/ Appreciate re-building CCWS is a difficult process, and unless you are part of the series all this stuff on how you'd like to see CC get back to what it was is pointless. Been there done that and even the t-shirt.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

It's not a case of not liking it as such. I don't hate the series by any means. I want it to do well. It deserves so much better.

I don't think CC can do better than it is. Who else is there to do a better job?

But right now it is heading towards "pants" status. Frankly it puts me in mind of Formula 3000 in its dying days.

Again interesting that everyone is saying Champ Car is dying, its no worse off than the IRL that is what I love.

It's all very well putting your head in the sand and saying everything is OK. The series is thriving. The "foundations are there". The last two races were "quite interesting". But it is not realistic.

No one is saying the series is thriving. The foundations are there. The euro swing in spring and then the second euro swing in fall will be the better races of CC. Europe is a good place for CC and should help re-build with the foundations. The Atlantics series which was brought to life has brought a lot of new talent in for the future years of Champ Car. That's 2 of many.

Maybe I should post somewhere where criticism of Champcar is disallowed, maybe then I'll see the light. Well, as much as you can see the light with blinkers on.

Re-read my first post, I criticized CC as much as I had optimism. Sure it seems optimism is a crime. This thread has been ruined. This forum has lacked a bit of it. I started posting here again and discuss Champ Car with Champ Car fans, if we can't enjoy CC because of others that isn't good. I personally like to hear stuff from race fans as I am sick of either bashing or the posts of what people want to see and why CC sucks. It's a broken record. CART is dead, that's it. Isn't coming back. Watch it or don't watch it. Enjoy Champ Car or don't. It's the way it is.

[JohnSSC]

Well. Isn't this interesting! Exciting, too!

So essentially when someone like myself posts anything it is automatically negative and therefore unenthusiastic and/or bad. But when you, luke, get called on what you posted the back-tracking starts immediately with an attempt to validate your support of a small field by stating that somewhere along the line you too said that a small field is a negative.

Then we begin the whole process of throwing multiple things on the wall to see what sticks. The knife cuts both ways here. You can't support the small fields which you luke, and norman have done. Yes, the TV focus is on the pointy end of the field but if the field were large enough to have something going on in the back as well the focus would not have to be on the front. As Mystery correctly points out; a title race means very little when it is not difficult to gain them. It would seem then for at least one of you that a 7 car field is fine as long as you did not actually pay for a ticket. But how you can say you want bigger fields but bigger fields "at the end of the day make zero difference." It is either important or it is not. It can't be both. Further, much of the excitement recently has been due to the whims of nature. Having attended a Can-Am race or two when the series was in it's death throes, believe me, there are few things less entertaining than watching 9 cars going around a 2 or 3 mile road course.

Now, tossed into the maelestrom of questions were a number of things that have nothing to do with the racing so far in 2007, so why not start a thread if you wish on those subjects and we can address them specifically there.

[Hazza]

IRL - "Racing You Actually Care About"

[JohnSSC]

Non-threatening, off-the-cuff comment: For not caring one whit about the IRL. there sure is a lot written about the IRL here in the CC 2007 thread...

I mean, if it is such an inferior product, why do folks spend so much time trying to demonstrate it is an inferior product?

Whistling in the dark, perhaps?

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by Mystery

Personally, I completely disagree that one or two cars means nothing.

Originally Posted by luke

1 or 2 extra cars would add very little in hindsight. It's just the bashers wanting to look for things to moan about.

Originally Posted by luke

And I did not call you a basher in person.

Did I ever say you did??

Points are all the way down in IRL as well.

That's nice - I thought we were discussing CCWS though. IRL's faults can have a BIG thread of their own elsewhere. As for MotoGp you get 1 point for 15th which if you're in a 30 bike grid actually means something you've had to fight for. Is it even possible to get 1 point in CCWS (or indeed IRL if you must)?

Originally Posted by luke

Don't like it, don't watch it/ Appreciate re-building CCWS is a difficult process, and unless you are part of the series all this stuff on how you'd like to see CC get back to what it was is pointless. Been there done that and even the t-shirt.

Now if we're discussing lack of enthusiasm how do you figure this one. All of us are posting here because we care about the series - you represent that care one way and I have no issue with that. My care is shown via wanting the series to succeed now, because I am genuinely concerned that it is heading rapidly down the toilet and quality drivers like Doornbos, Wilson, Bourdais and <gritted teeth> Tracy </gritted teeth> deserve a quality series to show their obvious talents. I'm just not sure CC is it (and no I dont think IRL is at present either). Given that background surely if I just quietly accept the status quo then I'm accepting the series is doomed - believe me I ain't prepared to accept that quite yet.

Originally Posted by luke

Again interesting that everyone is saying Champ Car is dying, its no worse off than the IRL that is what I love.

I don't believe anyone recently in this thread has said anything positive about the IRL either.

Originally Posted by luke

Watch it or don't watch it. Enjoy Champ Car or don't. It's the way it is.

I don't enjoy it at present but did last season - why should I not express those views? Simply because it will spoil the utopian quality of this thread apparently. I don't pine for the CART era because I don't really know the CART era very well. I watched Mansell's first season and I've seen a smattering of races ever since Sky showed them a few years back but I can't really pine for something I don't know about.

But do I want CCWS to change and grow - you're damn right I do. But don't expect me to be quiet in a thread looking back at the season so far if I feel it's not been a success.

[Purist]

Mystery, I'm not quite sure what substantially changed from last year that would cause you to enjoy CART less this year than last. Please elaborate on your displeasure if you would (yes, I know, I used the old acronym; it's a lot easier to remember).

As for me, I was very excited watching Las Vegas, Cleveland, and Mont Tremblant this season, moreso than I have been, watching a CART race, since at least 2001. Also, I am planning to be at Road America for the ALMS and CART races coming up.

[norman-normal]

Gee, I didn't know number of cars was more important than number of "paid attendance.

Truth be known, people who watch races with too many cars on the track, do so , to see spectacular accidents.

[paul-collins]

Care to back that up, norm?

[Mystery]

Originally Posted by Purist

Mystery, I'm not quite sure what substantially changed from last year that would cause you to enjoy CART less this year than last. Please elaborate on your displeasure if you would (yes, I know, I used the old acronym; it's a lot easier to remember).

I can see why you question it because really very little has changed from last year, but I'll try and illustrate it the best I can.

I was incredibly excited at the start of the season and made a point of watching the Vegas race, and to be honest it was something of a complete shambles. It all looked very amateurish to me what with road cones marking the pit entry and the car failures and considering the people that are involved in the series I really don't believe there was any excuse for that. The event became something of a lottery and really became an endurance event rather than a race as such.

Long Beach was an ok race although Seabass was so dominant it wasn't really much of a spectacle, but nothing put me off there. Don't remember anything about Houston and the only other race I saw was Portland which was entirely unremarkable - would have been a real snore had it not been for Bourdais being held up.

So there's not really been one specific event to put me off - it's just that the whole thing has been incredibly unremarkable to me. Last season had quite a lot of drama in it (not necessarily wholly welcome) with punchups and exciting racing and some suprise winners and losers - the dramatic rise of AJ Allmendinger being quite an event simply arising from a team change - and I was yelling at the telly when Bourdais barged Wilson out the way in Mexico. It was great entertainment.

This year - nada....I'm just not getting it. Whether the coverage isn't so great or I've been unlucky enough to have picked some dull races to watch I don't know. Or even if it's as silly as getting irritated every time I see the Nations Cup standings showing separate entries for England, Scotland and United Kingdom. I don't know but that X-factor that keeps me coming back for more isn't there this year.

[BootsOntheSide]

The biggest difference between 2006 and 2007 was probably expectation, especially in terms of car count. On the plus side, the driver talent is the best overall since 2002, even if some more US drivers and less guys to whom it's a consolation prize after years of trying to reach F1. Sadly, a few of the tracks haven't been adequate, the initial reliability was disappointing, and the move toawrds standing starts and timed races is a bit too 'F1 Junior'.

The points system is a big problem - I think it was changed as a way of paying entrant support and disguising it as as Prize money. Getting points for crashing on lap 1 has 'Special Olympics' written all over it, but it seems to be the increasing mentality in motorsport (if not sport in general). Amazing that F1 gets criticised for increasing its point-scorers from 6 to 8 in an era of 16 cars regularly finishing....