2009 and 2010 regulations to be released today.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

GP2 cars will be faster soon.

When you consider this it is highly unlikely.

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

The one that leapt out at me the most was a ban on refuelling for 2010!

Hurrah!

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Tyre warmers ban : Sensible

Excellent. Driving on cold tyres will be difficult. And that should be encouraged.

It isn't that bad overall. Needs must, although I'm not happy with some of it. I'm no fan of restrictions here. Could have been worse though. That is what Max was heading for though wasn't it; people like me thinking that it isn't too bad (compared to the horror he was suggesting).
I shall consider some more. He's losing me anyway, this will mearly slow the decline IMHO.

[broadrun96]

The tire warmer ban won't really impact safety that much except for those drivers that really shouldnt be in F1 anyway, if you don't know to yield to the guy with hotter tires it's your own fault and a well-earned penalty. And I'm sure we'll see the tires in weird places warming them up. Didn't see anything about new compounds but would be surprised to see Bridgestone not go for two compounds, one that warms up quick but may run off at the end and one that's more even throughout the race.
As for the shorter races, the wording on F1's site makes it definitely sound like it's purely for the audience '• Possible reduction in race distance or duration (proposal to follow market research).'

Also sounds like any chassis development will become frozen at the start of the season and FOM will have the plans so they can compare at any time?
• A list of all elements of the chassis will be prepared and a decision taken in respect of each element as to whether or not it will remain a performance differentiator (competitive element).

• Some elements which remain performance differentiators will be homologated for the season.

[Oldtony]

Could have been a lot worse.
Refeuling ban AND no tyre warmers effectively makes pit stops a liability rather than a tactical advantage. Brings up the question of tyre supply choice. Will Bridgestone give the choice of a tyre which goes the whole distance?
Brings out (or back) a whole new set of skills for drivers in conserving both tyres and fuel.
The suggestion of a standardised KERS system so soon is just plain daft. This is an area where there a whole range of potential concepts to explore. I am concerned that a lot of criticism of KERS in forums like this really does not recognise how revoloutionry this technology could be applied to stop start city driving. A real contribution to everyday driving for all of us, and potentialy more applicable than electric cars or battery hybrids.
The shortened race distance fits with TV schedules and the rapidly diminishing attention span of the new group of fans the Formula has attacted in recent years. If we want to keep them interested suppose we have to put up with it.
One would hope that the testing ban will be to some degree countered by extended testing time on the Friday and Saturday at race meetings. They will certainly be busier giving circuit ticket sales a boost on those days.
Be interesting to see the format and the questions in the "market survey" excersise, and will it be aimed at core fans or fringe supporters.
No mention anywhere of the Customer Car issue, is it due for revue further down the line or are we stuck with the present rule?

[Knowlesy]

Tyre warmers are not, and never have been, a "safety measure". They only became this when drivers started moaning about their proposed enforced disappearance. They were introduced so the cars could get up to speed a bit quicker, rather than spend an eternity waiting for the tyres to reach their temperature. Please point out the safety aspect of this?

Banning them is a really good thing.

And refuelling is not exciting. Go and stand outside your local Shell garage and try not to be bored within minutes. Banning this is also a really good thing.

Totally banning testing is not great, although it did need cut. I will miss going to tests.

Engine life doubling/rev reduction? Simply woeful stuff.

A mixed bag overall.

[Nicholosophy]

I actually would prefer to see perhaps 3 or 4 test sessions throughout the year at non-championship venues. It gives fans in other areas a chance to see the cars live, provides a revenue stream for the teams and Bernie, and allows teams who are behind the 8 ball a chance to catch up.

Perhaps one after the fly-aways at the start of the year, one mid-season (before or after the summer break) and one before the end of year fly-aways. Maybe one more at a circuit which is on the cusp of F1 - give the teams a chance to test our the facilities.

Could be something that smaller, non-championship circuits would bid for...

[Marbot]

I'm sure that most teams will be putting together some 'Red Bull' style demonstration days for fans all around the world.It will be good for them,good for their sponsors and good for F1.

[Adam43]

I forgot about the shorter races element. I am not keen, it isn't meant to be easy.

On frozen chassis. Can't say I picked up on that as such. I wouldn't like it, you have to have the opportunity to improve over the year. Otherwise it is more likely that the finishing order stays the same.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

I forgot about the shorter races element. I am not keen, it isn't meant to be easy.

Not keen either,although it doesn't seem to hurt MotoGP,but that seems somehow......different.

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

On frozen chassis. Can't say I picked up on that as such. I wouldn't like it, you have to have the opportunity to improve over the year. Otherwise it is more likely that the finishing order stays the same.

I think that they're looking at parts that maybe cost tons of cash but make no difference from one car to the next.Like suspension uprights,brakes etc.

[Peter235]

This is developing into an interesting debate but, so far, no one seems to have thought about the real implications of the changes.

F1, as the pinnacle aspiration category in motor racing for so many people, has also led to cost-no-object technology filtering into the rest of the sport for decades which has continually raised costs far beyond reason. (F3 teams with wind tunnels???????!!! Who do you think pays for that!)

But even that doesn't even start to address the real problems.

Moseley has said he wants to see all F1 teams with no more than 200 employees. That means that something like up to 500 per team will be out looking for work at a time when the whole sport is going to have to scale down. In the UK there used to be a motor sport industry with global customers, built up over decades (and the MIA are still happily quoting grossly irrelevant turnover figures and staffing levels that might just have been appropriate 8-10 years ago in their efforts to show how valuable the industry is to the UK economy).

Now look at it. It's already been reduced to a cottage industry with only a few exceptions. So where are all these people going to be re-employed?

Dumbed down F1 also means no opportunities for test drivers, so all these rich aspiring race drivers who can still afford to race from family resources (and whose parents are happy to fork out up to £1.5 million a year from their disposable income, AFTER Tax in the UK) will have nowhere to progress to. Remember the Autosport article this time last year that estimate the cost of even getting close to F1 as £4.5 million per driver - and still only a couple of places in F1 per year available (less now)?

There's loads more fall out that isn't so obvious, but one certainly is: all these colleges running "motorsport" courses as a fetish for pulling in income from students for an industry that's been getting progressively smaller for a long time. Would you employ a student when there's about to be a flood of thousands of ex F1 people wanting a job at any cost?

I could go on for a long time on this subject, but haven't time or space to develop this into the broader picture that is rapidly becoming increasingly alarming! Your thoughts?

Personally I can see a major fall out coming of sacred cows in 2009/2010, and this is the time when many tracks here have just announced that their hire costs are being raised again!

[Bononi]

Hi Peter235, welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Peter235

This is developing into an interesting debate but, so far, no one seems to have thought about the real implications of the changes.

F1, as the pinnacle aspiration category in motor racing for so many people, has also led to cost-no-object technology filtering into the rest of the sport for decades which has continually raised costs far beyond reason. (F3 teams with wind tunnels???????!!! Who do you think pays for that!)

Is that a bad or a good thing ?

Originally Posted by Peter235

But even that doesn't even start to address the real problems.

Moseley has said he wants to see all F1 teams with no more than 200 employees. That means that something like up to 500 per team will be out looking for work at a time when the whole sport is going to have to scale down. In the UK there used to be a motor sport industry with global customers, built up over decades (and the MIA are still happily quoting grossly irrelevant turnover figures and staffing levels that might just have been appropriate 8-10 years ago in their efforts to show how valuable the industry is to the UK economy).

Now look at it. It's already been reduced to a cottage industry with only a few exceptions. So where are all these people going to be re-employed?

Well, I agree but add to your thought millions throughtout the world that are losing their jobs due to the financial crisis. A drop in the ocean ?

Originally Posted by Peter235

Dumbed down F1 also means no opportunities for test drivers, so all these rich aspiring race drivers who can still afford to race from family resources (and whose parents are happy to fork out up to £1.5 million a year from their disposable income, AFTER Tax in the UK) will have nowhere to progress to. Remember the Autosport article this time last year that estimate the cost of even getting close to F1 as £4.5 million per driver - and still only a couple of places in F1 per year available (less now)?

I'm not sure it would happen that way, as there's a clear way to boost the places in the grid with new teams entering in F1. But I know where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by Peter235

There's loads more fall out that isn't so obvious, but one certainly is: all these colleges running "motorsport" courses as a fetish for pulling in income from students for an industry that's been getting progressively smaller for a long time. Would you employ a student when there's about to be a flood of thousands of ex F1 people wanting a job at any cost?

Markets tend to adapt, merge and create new opportunities, new ways of making profit and new kind of jobs can be available.

Originally Posted by Peter235

I could go on for a long time on this subject, but haven't time or space to develop this into the broader picture that is rapidly becoming increasingly alarming! Your thoughts?

I agree completely, that's alarming. I've been saying that for a long time. But my concern is not limited by F1 and their surroundings. Actually F1 is just a tiny part of a huge and worldwide change.

Originally Posted by Peter235

Personally I can see a major fall out coming of sacred cows in 2009/2010, and this is the time when many tracks here have just announced that their hire costs are being raised again!

Think of major... still not big enough for what's coming.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Peter235

This is developing into an interesting debate but, so far, no one seems to have thought about the real implications of the changes.

F1, as the pinnacle aspiration category in motor racing for so many people, has also led to cost-no-object technology filtering into the rest of the sport for decades which has continually raised costs far beyond reason. (F3 teams with wind tunnels???????!!! Who do you think pays for that!)

But even that doesn't even start to address the real problems.

Moseley has said he wants to see all F1 teams with no more than 200 employees. That means that something like up to 500 per team will be out looking for work at a time when the whole sport is going to have to scale down. In the UK there used to be a motor sport industry with global customers, built up over decades (and the MIA are still happily quoting grossly irrelevant turnover figures and staffing levels that might just have been appropriate 8-10 years ago in their efforts to show how valuable the industry is to the UK economy).

Now look at it. It's already been reduced to a cottage industry with only a few exceptions. So where are all these people going to be re-employed?

Dumbed down F1 also means no opportunities for test drivers, so all these rich aspiring race drivers who can still afford to race from family resources (and whose parents are happy to fork out up to £1.5 million a year from their disposable income, AFTER Tax in the UK) will have nowhere to progress to. Remember the Autosport article this time last year that estimate the cost of even getting close to F1 as £4.5 million per driver - and still only a couple of places in F1 per year available (less now)?

There's loads more fall out that isn't so obvious, but one certainly is: all these colleges running "motorsport" courses as a fetish for pulling in income from students for an industry that's been getting progressively smaller for a long time. Would you employ a student when there's about to be a flood of thousands of ex F1 people wanting a job at any cost?

I could go on for a long time on this subject, but haven't time or space to develop this into the broader picture that is rapidly becoming increasingly alarming! Your thoughts?

Personally I can see a major fall out coming of sacred cows in 2009/2010, and this is the time when many tracks here have just announced that their hire costs are being raised again!

Good post.

It is very sad that many thousands will lose their jobs if Max has his way but at least he and Bernie will still have 'The Formula Formally Known As Formula One' to keep their already grotesquely swollen coffers filling.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by REALIST

It is very sad that many thousands will lose their jobs if Max has his way but at least he and Bernie will still have 'The Formula Formally Known As Formula One' to keep their already grotesquely swollen coffers filling.

Of course it's always better to have something rather than nothing.

And who knows,maybe in years to come,Formula One can get back to its '£800,000 just for wheelnuts' ways.

P.S. see sig

[Oldtony]

Great Posts.
We have been concentrating on the technical and sporting reg changes but the financial side is of course the basis of it all.
The teams having got together to agree on the techncalities we can no longer afford now have to get together and agree on the income distribution system we can no longer afford.
Bluntly, if F1 cannot afford R&D, surely it cannot afford CVC?
If F1 is talking component standardisation, surely the most cost effective move in that direction is allowing Customer Cars?

[Spritle]

All of this will result in slower cars which IMHO is why I follow this thing in the first place. GP2 and other series will be turning the same times and take F1 from the pinnacle to a high priced joke.

I predict a future of extremely boring races with cars plodding along saving fuel, engines, driving slowly to warm tires and other stupid things. At least fuel strategy and pit stops gave us something to wonder about. The team that gets it right in the beginning will dominate the season because in-season improvements will be almost non-existent. Let's see, car A has it right and wins 8 medals after 9 races in a 18 race season so the WDC is over and we can watch football for the rest of year.

Let's see, if one driver dominates qualifying in a processional races that would eliminate the possibility of multiple winners so we will have to come up with another stupid qualifying method to "shake up the grid artificially". How about a lottery, reverse grid or letting the fans pick the poll sitter? Or maybe everybody gets a turn.

A total spec series is coming, mark my words. What's next Comrade Mosley; regulating team salaries? How about we start with yours!

I like open wheeled cars and road courses but F1 is rapidly becoming a gimmicky joke and losing my interest. I have a feeeling it may possibly lose the interest of the best drivers too at some point when the rest of the world tunes out.

[Bluewolf]

Gold, Silver, and Bronze for 1 - 2 - and 3???? --- No No No and No!!!

[JeremySmith]

I don't think this medal idea will be implemented, a lot of fuss about nothing....

[Teretonga]

I doubt this will happen at all. F1 will always be fairly competitive. eEven i the mid 80's when we had the turbo's and restricted tankage, the races were not often boring, certainly no more and ususally much less so than now so I can't see this becoming true.

Medals is BS as far as I anm concerned and I do not think it will fly. Max is effectively saying the same thing. Bernie may not live much longer.

Some karting series have four predetrrmined grid draws and a final gridded on the best three of the four heats. Should we have five 40 mile races instead of one 200 mile race?

I do not think we will ever have a spec series for F1 in the way that GP2 is or the way WSR is.
That will not happen.
If we had the manufacturers long term committed I have wondered about a series with spec chassis but open engines to a spec formula (eg capacity and fuel) for manufacturers to fight over thinking that would mean the elimination of the garagistes, but then Frank is really the only one left....

I agree there are too many gimmicks but that is also the current obsession with entertainment and trying to reach the 'public'. Its all to do with Money, selling the sport and CVC recouping its investment. It used to independent but its been sold to someone who has no heart for it and is trying to make money out of selling it as entertainment.

F1 used to have a sense of permanence. It didn't cater for the entertainment buck. It had fixed rules that seemed eternal and a standard that would never change. There was something solid and reliable about it.
That seems to have gone and if you note the amount of 'wanting to hearken back to the days of yesteryear' on this forum then it is often that sense of permanence and stability that many contributors to this forum want to return to. They are sick of the constant juggling of rules and regulations.

It's very much a "Leave our sport alone...It was fine before you came along and tried to fix what wasn't broken.. Now please *^#@ off "

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Spritle

All of this will result in slower cars which IMHO is why I follow this thing in the first place. GP2 and other series will be turning the same times and take F1 from the pinnacle to a high priced joke.

Average speeds of other series are quicker (IRL etc).Can't understand why F1 cars have to be faster than anything else?

Originally Posted by Spritle

At least fuel strategy and pit stops gave us something to wonder about.

Yeah,like wondering why they bothered with them in the first place!

Originally Posted by Spritle

A total spec series is coming, mark my words. What's next Comrade Mosley; regulating team salaries? How about we start with yours!

There isn't going to be a total spec series,read the new regs.Team salaries will be cut because most teams will have to shed some unnecessary work force.And Max doesn't get paid one cent for doing his job!

Originally Posted by Spritle

I like open wheeled cars and road courses but F1 is rapidly becoming a gimmicky joke and losing my interest. I have a feeeling it may possibly lose the interest of the best drivers too at some point when the rest of the world tunes out.

Where will these "best drivers" go I wonder?

[REALIST]

Quote MARBOT:

Average speeds of other series are quicker (IRL etc).

Not on the same tracks they wouldn't be.


Can't understand why F1 cars have to be faster than anything else?

They just have to, OK?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by REALIST

They just have to, OK?

It's not beyond the bounds of other series to make their cars go faster than the fastest contemporary F1 cars using older technology and less money.You have to remember that F1 cars will,generally speaking,only go as fast as the rules allow.

If a series wanted to it could use all the things that F1 has got bored with (ABS,Active suspension,huge amounts of downforce,blah blah blah) to make its cars faster than next seasons F1 cars.It would be quicker,but it may also run into the same problems.

[EBXR8]

What exactly is renault allowed to do to the engines for 09??? Will this mean maby Alonso and Webber might be able to keep up with Lewis and massa?? It seemed in 08 that only when it rained did they have any slim chance.

[Glen]

I think people have misunderstood the safety issue over tyre warmers - it has nothing to do with the skill required too keep the car on the road. It is about having slow moving cars randomly mixed in with cars going at race speed, which most definitely is dangerous.

[BeeJ]

Originally Posted by Glen

I think people have misunderstood the safety issue over tyre warmers - it has nothing to do with the skill required too keep the car on the road. It is about having slow moving cars randomly mixed in with cars going at race speed, which most definitely is dangerous.

So like a lot of other racing series that have multiple classes on the circuit at the same time. Just another driving skill F1 drivers are going to have to learn again. I have no issues about banning tyre warmers or refuelling, as has been said it makes the pit stop more of a liability. The only issue I have is the idea of making KERS standard, I thought one of the points of standard engine performance was to encourage development in technologies such as KERS. To me KERS being open was sort of akin to the old days when some teams ran V8's some V10's and some V12's as they are quite a few ways of doing KERS.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by BeeJ

So like a lot of other racing series that have multiple classes on the circuit at the same time. Just another driving skill F1 drivers are going to have to learn again.

Don't tend to be open wheel classes though. Plus every other class of racing is slower.

Anyhow, I wasn't saying that no tyre warmers wasn't something that couldn't be coped with, only that lots of people had totally misunderstood the argument when they were banging on about driver skill.

[mini1400]

Originally Posted by Glen

Don't tend to be open wheel classes though. Plus every other class of racing is slower.

So what's the International Class and National class in British F3?