Brabham BT29

[allenbrown]

Funny what you can sometime find when looking for something completely different (Part 2):

Motoring News has a feature on MRD 10 Dec 1970 pp12-14 and has a table showing production to date. For the BT29, it has 19 built in 1969 and 29 built in 1970. A total of 48, which makes a lot more sense.

Allen

[Chris Townsend]

Allen

I've long maintained that the advertising sections of old magazines are the most interesting... As we often have home towns for American drivers maybe we can trace sales even when we don't get numbers

Re the BT29 build in 1969. Schenken takes a BT29 to Daytona at end December and wins the FB race with it. David Irwin says this becomes Reynolds' car used in FC and is 29-25, suggesting they knocked a few more out in the period between the MN article being written and the end of the month.

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

All.

I have a massive amount of info. on BT29 s , however , I gave an agreement to not disclose.

I am safe in advising , the latest I have is BT29-49 , AM 70-[ 3 figures ].
Also a BT29 , ch.no. unknown , however with AM 125.

Nearly all these cars are still in the U.S.A.
3 have escaped to Australia.

Re. the production figures , I have the ex. factory sheets as advised previously , and these show 31 off in 1969 , but no figure for 1970 production.
It may be due to the manner in which the sheets were photocopied for me , and the start of the next page had 1970 figures which fell off the sheet.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

My production records(came from the best source) also show 48 cars ie up to and inc29-49(no 13)

[Bryan Miller]

Chris.

EX U.S.A BT29's.

BT29-14, AM69-31.

Appears to be .

Mike Hiss .
Ernie Haze.
Lou Pavesi.
Frank Bramante.

all in between 1969 and 1979.
1979 , Tom Fugate
1985 , John Treder.
1985 , John Hafkenshiel.
1985 , Lou Pavesi.

Thence to Jim McConville in Australia , and application rec'd by C.A.M.S. March 1991.

Changed hands after racing in historics to Steven Lunn , and to my knowledge has not been seen again.

Bryan.

[Bryan Miller]

Continued.

BT29-44, AM-70-119.

New to Larry Wright , via dealer Hayes Racing Equip. Santa Ana, Calif. 15-12-1970.

13-2-1971 , 1st. race SCCA , Nat. Riverside.

Ran all through 71 and 1972 and 1973 , until crash at Laguna Seca 24-6-1973.
SCCA tech. notes car spun into guardrail and bank--hit by another car , frame bent and distorted , suspension destroyed all but left rear.

Eng. and FT200 removed and slotted into another car , poss. BT29-22.
Remains sold to Mark Bahner in 1973 or 1974 , retained by Bahner 'till 1980, sold to Lou Pavesi , retained 'till 1993 , sold to Steve Pike and Jim McConville of Australia , and rebuilt .
The car was not much more than a dead frame and a few odds and sods.

Now logbooked and running in historics, after a lot of investigation into history . We believe it is correct.

Bryan.

[Michael Oliver]

Hi chaps

Don't know if anyone else has seen it, but the latest edition of Victory Lane magazine has an ad for a 1969 Brabham BT29:

"Serial #1. A rare 'barn-find' painstakingly restored after 30+ years of storage. Likely the most original, complete, correct, original (OK, OK, we get the idea, it's original!) BT29 in existence. Well sorted, ready to race. Documented great race history. US$71,500' on a Texas number.

[David McKinney]

BT29-1 was for sale, I think in the same publication,around 1997 - in California

[Bryan Miller]

BT29-1 has been for sale on www.race-cars.com for some time now.

I am beginning to wonder if we are achieving anything with these threads , granted we are uncovering some cars and missing histories , but as various people are recieving private emails telling stories , but unable to be quoted , where to from here in the intricate world of old racing cars.

In the new system of the F.I.A. historic paperwork , 2 systems are now in place.

For the people unaware ,

Part 1 , Historic Technical Passport , this is all that is required by the F.I.A. to compete in an event, and is to ensure that the car presented only complies with period specifications for that model.
There is NO requirement for history or Provenance on the application form.
So you can go get a DEAD chassis, or make a brand new one and put on all the period components and go race it.
This is unbelievable.

Note , whether an organiser of an event will accept a car such as this may be the saving grace , who knows.

The 2nd. part is to be a Heritage Certificate issued by the F.I.A. detailing history, and according to the F.I.A. website will only be issued to cars with an un-interupted history trail , and always having been as one 'Entity '.

Who is going to issue these papers and what sources will be used to verify owners history call outs.????????????

Does anybody know we exist , or Atlas , and do they take any notice.???????????????.

This will probably create a fair amount of discussion , so be it , it has needed to be said since the start of the new system.

The problem has resulted because the old H.V.I.F. forms were in some cases ' Drivel '.

I for one don't really mind if a BTxx has been turned into a BTxx+ , and it probably would not bother me racing against one , AS LONG AS I KNEW HOW THE CAR HAD STATRED LIFE, and IT WAS DOCUMENTED AS SUCH.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

I am one of the Signituries for Single Seaters here in the UK So I hope that the Brabham side at least should be OK.

[David McKinney]

Is that for Technical Passports or Heritage Certificates or both?

[Ted Walker]

Technical Passports as the Heritage cert will be far more complex and involves a "joint effort" I think.I cant see many cars qualifying .

[Bryan Miller]

Ted,
Thank you, In Australia you must provide the history as best as possible back to the original owner/builder, it is my understanding that over your side of the pond only a continuos 15 year history is required, is this correct.????

Hell we don't get it right all the time , and because of these forums some people are being asked to verify information previously submitted in this country.

But , how can a 15 year rule work on a 1966 BTxx , this is I believe one of the places where it all started coming unglued.
We all read the adverts such as Low Cost racing etc had with old openwheelers which were converted to F/Four etc, not to mention the March goings on , Lotus 23's ad infinitum.
We have here at least 2 Brabhams that were built at the factory by Aust. employees , and never had chassis plates , AM numbers yes, and they have full and continuos history , I am unable to see that these cars will be able if the owners wish, to obtain a Heritage Certificate.

Where to from here ???

As I see it , all H.V.I.F. approved cars should have to re-apply within 2 years , and the cars be re-certified , this would save a lot of double handling , but the BIG QUESTION still is who is to handle the paperwork and examine the trails , and verify same , the F.I.A. or are they still going to rely on the the local A.S.N.

What I think I am suggesting , is there any possibility of the various Forums being involved in any new process that is decided. ???

Regards Bryan.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Bryan, Could be argued that in the case of a Brabham a AM number was not a VIN or chassis number, in which case the two scenarios are covered by the FIA?

Quote from the FIA
“What sources of information will be available to the FIA?
Apart from its own records and those of its ASNs, the FIA will rely on all the usual sources, including specialist motor clubs, independent experts and manufacturers’ records, as well as documentation of the kinds mentioned above.”

“The second document is the Heritage Certificate (HC). This is, in effect, a statement that the FIA believes the car to be both authentic and original. It will only be issued in respect of a car which has its original manufacturer’s VIN or chassis number and can be proved to have existed as a complete car continuously since it was originally built.”

“How will the HC apply to the very many cars which clearly are old/ certainly original but either have no manufacturers identifying mark from new or have lost it over the years, or where the history of the car is lost in the mists of time?
It won’t, unless the owner of such a car can satisfy the two conditions for an HC. It is difficult to see how a car could be “certainly original” if it is unable to satisfy the two conditions.”

-and as I see it, no chassis/vin number, no continuos history, no H C. Dead set no concessions for mitigating circumstances, Game Over.

Ted, I see your reasoning!!

[allenbrown]

And who is going to pay for the huge amount of manpower required to get a HC? As these will add significantly to the value of a car, I can't see the "independent experts" opening their records without getting some share in the increased value of the car.

Some years ago, I would do detailed ownership histories of cars for a fee of typically $500 USD. I stopped that when I realised the risk of being sued by someone if I got it wrong. As professional indemnity insurance is too expensive to contemplate, I now turn down such offers. How will the FIA encourage such experts to co-operate or will they (continue to) turn up anonymously on TNF and 10 Tenths asking questions?

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Allen.

Are we not doing some of the work now in these Forums , which is why I posed the question , who 'looks'in.?

The figure I have been advised that is to be charged for a Heritage Certificate is being mooted as $1000.00 U.K. Can anyone confirm this figure.?

Apparently the Certificates will not be restricted to racing cars , and will also be available for say a Rolls Royce.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

As I understand it there will be a regular"signituries meeting" to discuss applicants TPs.Full continious histories period paperwork,photos etc must go with the applications,these will be kept on file at the MSA.

[allenbrown]

Bryan

There's a difference between our attempts to sort out all the BT29s or all the 712Ms, and a specific attempt to sort out the history of one car. The former is something we wanted to do and is of wide general interest; the latter would be a wealth-increasing exercise for an owner.

Having said that, I've just been asked to sort out the history of the one-off March 77S and it's so interesting I'll be doing that just for the fun of it.

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Allen.

It is very difficult isn't it , in the course of my C.A.M.S. duties , I see so many applications totally bereft of anything other than the basic history, some people don't care , but the majority don't have the magazine , books , race programme etc. resources , and don't know where to look , and/or give up when they think they have done enought to satisfy the requirements , which when thinking about it means deep down they don't really care , all they want is took go thrashing around in an old racing car.

Ted.

From a U.K. source , I was advised that your scenario , was the intended way of handling new Tech. Passport applications, which if I read correctly , means no history no Passport , so no 2004 built Brabhams will be aceptable to the M.S.A.

As we do not need a Tech. Passport over here to compete in Aust. only the Certificate of Description , I can see no change in Aust. for our internal cars, the problem will be in 5 / 10 years time with cars coming to race , or cars being purchased from overseas.

To hell with the politics , I feel a BT38 , BT40 thread coming upon us.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

BRYAN.I HOPE that this will be the case.Would it not be better to do a BT23 thread ????? . I still have a problem with the 2 BT29s that were sold by MRE herein the uk.that is chassis 19 & 20. I know where they both are now.19 sold by Matchett via MRE Racedby Cuthbert 72, Sabourin 73 . Mike Utley 74 .Frampton and Hutchings 74 to date. Chassis 20 Sold new by MRE end 69 to ???? ANY IDEAS.

[Bryan Miller]

Sincerely wish I could assist re. your two BT29s.
How do we sort this car out .i.e BT29-20
1] Where is it now.??
2] How did it get there.?
3] How long has it been where it is now .?
4] How far back can you go , sometimes it is easier to go rearwards if you don't have a starting point/ name.

The problem area always will be for us, the people in the U.K. who broke cars up as spares, and the other big problem is that some cars did , 1] not do much work, and 2] were used by non famous people , and/or in club events.

Breaking up of race cars over here virtually did not happen , as the cost with import duties of a new car was substantial , so the cars kept on being updated with bigger wheels , chassis stiffening , different eng. for a new formula etc. so the cars were in most cases still extant, where over your side of the pond , when it was a few years old , there was a fair chance that it was used a source of spares.

BT29-19 should ,I believe answer a Chris Townsend problem.

Regards Bryan.

[Chris Townsend]

BT29-19 solves a big problem. Thank you very much.

Chassis 20. Wasn't there a BT29 used in hillclimbs in 1970?

Looking forward to the BT23s. I know that 23-8 [built with an Alfa engine for Galli] was still extant in Italy a year or two back.

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Ted.

Is BT29-20 a possible for the Tony Griffiths hillclimb car, that was totalled real quick and then recieved a BT30 chassis.????

Bryan.

[David McKinney]

No, that was 37

[Bryan Miller]

David , thank you .

Ted and all ,

Autosport May 23-1969 , at Wiscombe reports Roger Hickman having to be cut out of his BT29 FVA .
I have Hickman in a BT30 FVA ,on page 1 of this thread , was the BT29 replaced by a BT30 , and the BT29 your missing BT29-20. Time frame is correct .

We have sort of allocated BT30-2 to this , although David McKinney has notes saying BT30-3 , maybe this is the replacement for the BT29 , or is the Autosport article incorrect in calling it a BT29.??

Bryan.