Safer working under Yellow Flags?

[danccooke]

i could see this becoming a circular argument, I was marshalling becketts out for the BTCC at silverstone. F renault boys in the last race of the weekend. we have 5 cars in three seperate incidents, first two came in and were effectivly one the racing line just after the apex, after three laps trying to untangle the cars whilst watching your back they had to be snatched as it appeared to us they just were not backing off, however RC said there was a drop in lap times, scary stuff can we as marshalls really tell the difference between 10mph which i imagine to a driver really seems as backing off. Who knows i am not a driver but could they have stopped if they needed too.....probably once they had hit the already stationary cars.....sorry just my tuppence worth

[Woolley]

If we're out there, the flag will be waving. Please slow down for all our sakes, even if you think the others won't, because if you all think like that then no-one will slow down at all. Then we will have to wave the red and it spoils everyone's fun.

Assume that everyone will slow, and someone won't, get your co-ordinator to do something about it. You all know who are the offenders, sort it between yourselves.

[EvilPumpkin]

There's a very easy way to slow drivers down at an incident. Stick out a change of surface. I have never yet seen a driver that didn't slow down for that flag!

[johnw]

Thanks for the responses people.

Entirely agree that drivers should slow sufficently, but if they did, this thread wouldn't exist. There appear to be no sanctions imposed on the offenders, and as long as that is the case, the situation isn't going to change. Goforit explained why perfectly. If the race is still on, and you have any competitive spirit, you will not want to be beaten to the green wherever it is. So move it away from the marshals on track.

I don't see how changing the colour of the flag would help, as the yellow is there to do the same job. Ignoring an orange would be no more difficult for the folks that ignore the yellow.

Our series has on-board loggers but most do not. I can't see why the majority of drivers should have to pay to sort out the offending ones.

We all have transponders, but it would require someone to determine how much slower we should be driving and hand out penalties. They are not doing that now, so why would the transponder info change the situation? The offending drivers would claim that they were slow past the marshals and made up the time in the rest of the track.

Interesting to hear that the still, waved, still combination of yellows were used, but I don't really understand the logic behind dropping them. Whether it's 20% or 50% of the track that is under yellow, from my perspective, it still makes it impossible to drive the way I want to, knowing that there is a yellow sector.

Woolley, of course we would all slow down if we were sure that anyone who transgressed would be penalised, but it doesn't happen consistently, so you hedge your bets. Wrong, I know, but it happens.

So... we have a system that isn't being made to work, and what seems to me, a simple suggestion to provide an elongated safe area for the marshals to work in that is in your experience, unworkable.

Where do we go from here?

[Flagman]

Extending the yellow past the danger zone is not really the answer - it just frustrates the drivers more. The area we need to slow them down in is on the approach to the incident not in the relativly safe zone after it.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by rzsio396
If we were to have an orange luminus flag to display as well( not a bad idea) we could revert to the same system people had of holding out the defunct black and yellow and the yellows for the incident on the post. They worked then it could work again but a different flag, couldnt it?.
RS

Some drivers would swear they didn't see it even if it was dayglo orange and big as the side of a house!!

[Alan Crook]

As I have said in the past I believe the answer lies with the clerk of the course, to often overtaking under yellows happens and very little or no actoin is taken, there are always excuses from the drivers saying they did not see the flag (try telling a policeman you did not see his speed camera and you still get a fine and points ??)

If drivers believe the flag posts are not visible this should be reported by the drivers to the clerks. Flag posts/positions are sactioned by the MSA if they are in the wrong place complain.

When clerks start to take action every time then and only then will drivers start to slow under yellows. Clerks must trust the observer on post and if a driver has locked up or the back end has stepped out of line the driver is not in control and action should be taken.

CLERKS WISE UP AND GET TOUGH !!

[Flagman]

If drivers believe the flag posts are not visible this should be reported by the drivers to the clerks.

You would hope the drivers could get it right BUT ...

About 10 years ago at the GP at Silverstone, following some circuit changes, the drivers complained that our flag point was in the wrong place to be seen properly. During the Friday lunch break the circuit staff arrived and built us a brand new post about 20 yards to the left, accompanied but lots of very agitated leather armbands ( CoC's, assorted chief flag marshals etc).

When it was finished us three flag marshals collected up all our gear to move to the new post only to be told 'Only the Blue flag marshal is to move to the new post, the rest to stay on the old post'.

To this day I still haven't worked out the logic of that one!

[Séamas M.]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
There's a very easy way to slow drivers down at an incident. Stick out a change of surface. I have never yet seen a driver that didn't slow down for that flag!

Nice idea EP, we can usually claim there's some sort of debris on the track at an incident.... I like it!

[Flagman]

I have never yet seen a driver that didn't slow down for that flag!

Unless he hits the oil just before seeing the flag

Have to be a bit carefull though, if we start overusing the oil flag then they will just start ignoring that as well.

I think the real answer is for each marshals post to be supplied with a pile of house bricks - which we can start lobbing at those who ignore tha flags

[johnw]

Originally posted by Flagman
Extending the yellow past the danger zone is not really the answer - it just frustrates the drivers more.

I'm not convinced that the frustration level would be any higher with an extra flag zone.

The area we need to slow them down in is on the approach to the incident not in the relativly safe zone after it.

Agreed Flagman. But my original point was that the current system works against you, and the closer to the green the marshals are working, the greater the danger.

Whatever, I shall get off this extended yellow hobby horse and look at your good suggestions.

Pumpkins view re the oil flag is interesting. So all drivers will slow down for self preservation, but some will not for your preservation? Shouldn't really keep a licence should they?

Alan Crook's plea to the Clerks has to be the way to go. Drivers from eight or ten series were admitted to the Marshals training day at Thruxton earlier this year. We all asked, nay pleaded, for the observers to report these yellow flag offences and the clerks to take draconian action. I don't know why there is a reluctance, your speed camera analogy is spot on Alan.

Using the "I didn't see the flag" excuse should result in some form of penalty. Such a lack of observation falls outside the actions of a competent driver. I speak with experience of missing a black and orange flag for seven (yes seven)laps before seeing and rapidly obeying the black flag. I actually didn't see it, due to driving in red mist generated by having been the victim of an earlier piece of unpunished crass driving.
As it turned out, the reason for the black/orange wass unjustified, but you just have to take your lumps in these cases. Fine and endorsement in my case. No argument, I should have been more aware.

If you report such offences, and no action is taken, the minum requirement should be for you to receive feedback about the reasons. Otherwise why would you bother again?

Maybe the answer is yours flagman. One of our competitors has a building firm. I'll ask him about sponsoring the bricks!

See (some) of you at Brands
John

[Chigley]

Not wishing to put anyone on the spot, but some informal feedback would be appreciated, either in what the action taken was, or, why no action could be taken....
Last weekend at Donny with the 750mc we reported at least two drivers for excessive speed in a waved yellow zone to the extent where the drivers had to lock up to avoid:

a. coming off the track and hitting marshals working on the track edge.
b. to avoid colliding with a competitor who had slowed in acknowledgement of seeing a frantically waved yellow which was severe enough to warrant a red flag.

What the outcome was I don't know; but I do know that one of the drivers was involved in a multiple shunt earlier in the dat at the same place and acknowledged, whilst his car was being recovered, that a fellow competitors actions were lunacy.

The lonny was case a. the aggrieved driver was case b.

I sincerely hope that at least two cheque books took a heavy bashing. Our I/O was fuming at being exposed to such driving when he was blinded to oncoming cars by a blind brow and bend.

[johnw]

Why not put someone on the spot Ian?

It's just good practice to provide feedback to you guys.
Don't know the series you were refering to, but I'm sure that fines are not the answer. The only sanction that really hurts is being stopped from racing.