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12 Jul 2007, 10:09 (Ref:1961407) | #26 | ||
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OK let me put it this way.
If your dream is for an international championship of 2 hour races with single drivers and F1 style pit stops then fine. It bear no resemblance to any form of sportscar racing that I'd be interested in. There's a massive difference between endurance racing and sprint racing - between the strategy and teamwork of the former and the latter - The one common factor could be the cars. In my view there are too many sprint series now and that is removing something very special from the racing product on offer. The fact that (for instance) the Le Mans Series is proving so successful with competitors is proof if any were needed that there is still a market for proper sportscar racing and not a watered down for TV alternative. |
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12 Jul 2007, 10:11 (Ref:1961410) | #27 | ||
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If you wish to watch sprint races with single driver's, watch DTM or WTCC. Sportscar racing's strength is the endurance aspect, build from that base and NEVER, EVER change the fundamentals. Last edited by JAG; 12 Jul 2007 at 10:17. |
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12 Jul 2007, 10:14 (Ref:1961416) | #28 | ||
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Idealy there would be no GT cars at Le Mans, or at the very least, a single class with 15-20 cars, while the other 35-40 are prototypes. Last edited by JAG; 12 Jul 2007 at 10:18. |
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12 Jul 2007, 10:20 (Ref:1961419) | #29 | |||
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Sportscar Racing fans of the world Unite! |
12 Jul 2007, 10:33 (Ref:1961430) | #30 | ||
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Not a shame - a disgrace. The LMS need to do MUCH more to change that
Last edited by Graham Goodwin; 12 Jul 2007 at 10:35. |
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12 Jul 2007, 10:36 (Ref:1961432) | #31 | ||
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Le Mans and the ALMS show what is possible. At least we have three of the better events to finish the season with. Last edited by JAG; 12 Jul 2007 at 10:39. |
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12 Jul 2007, 11:03 (Ref:1961457) | #32 | |
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The market will (and already is) dictate the outcome. GT1 (and GT2 now) cars cannot be financed easily with only two hour races. The real crunch will come if LMS runs competing (or nearly competing) dates. Given that there is no true manufacturer support, the pot is very limited. Ratel needs to be more involved in marketing the LMS and the partners/owners need to invest in the series to build it up.
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12 Jul 2007, 11:23 (Ref:1961478) | #33 | |||
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I dont think the "build it and they will come" mentalilty works too well. |
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"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG |
12 Jul 2007, 11:34 (Ref:1961487) | #34 | ||
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Wow, a lot of chat in the last two hours while I did some work!!
I did say that you should restrict the pit lane crew because of the finance issue and would not agree with 11 man crews, the present crew is quite enough. The attraction of GT1 and 2 running with one driver is that the public would indeed identify with a driver and we know that builds a fan base. As Mr Ratel is involved with both LMS and the FIA series he should be able to dovetail the two series and I thought that I had seen something about only 5 races being wanted in that series, am I wrong? 6 includes the Brazil experiment The 2 hour format is what TV wants we are told so we would have a good chance of good TV and GT racing with better crowds |
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12 Jul 2007, 12:44 (Ref:1961541) | #35 | |
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2 hours is fine for sprint style GT racing with 10-12 events per year, LMS is fine in the 6 hour format with 6 races.
Having a single driver would as GG points out wreck most teams budgets and why anyone would want more people in the pitlane is beyond me.....there is strategy involved in the decision as to whether to change tyres atm, if you do F1 style pitstops then yet another level of strategy is removed....bad imo. |
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12 Jul 2007, 13:19 (Ref:1961569) | #36 | ||
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Are the public going to be excited by Piccini vs Deletraz, or Aston vs Peugeot vs Audi? Other than F1, mainstream TV wants 40 minute sprints, then they may drop you at any given time, just look at the way the BTCC is shoved around the schedules Last edited by JAG; 12 Jul 2007 at 13:23. |
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12 Jul 2007, 13:24 (Ref:1961574) | #37 | ||
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12 Jul 2007, 13:30 (Ref:1961580) | #38 | |||
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Of course, a little start and prize money would not go amiss but then I am going to far eh? Shows just how old I am! |
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12 Jul 2007, 15:00 (Ref:1961651) | #39 | ||
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Yes 4 men on the tyres and 1 guy on the re fuelling rig would be enough, although not necaessary unless the teams were allowed to re fuel and change tyres at the same time. At Le Mans Peugeot have done something similar to this if I remember correctly, as soon as the re fuelling rig came out 4 guys jumped on the tyres, 1 in each corner. Never understood why the other teams in either the LMS or FIA GT havent copied that yet. The rules say only 4 people can work on the car at any 1 time but it doesent specify that they have to be the same people. If it isnt possible though at some circuits to connect up 4 air guns per pit box then I guess you could still have 4 pit crew on the tyre changes. Rather than thinking of the pitstops as being F1 style I think I would say they would be more in line with the DTM. F1 pit crews have something like 20-25 people, not 11.
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12 Jul 2007, 15:42 (Ref:1961696) | #40 | |||
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13 Jul 2007, 07:03 (Ref:1962143) | #41 | |||
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When it became GT1 etc. I stopped watching. Sportscar Racing was different to F1 etc. It was all about endurance and tactics. It wasn't the pit stops that made it exciting, it was the changes throughout the race that made it exciting. Stuck, Belloff, Wollek etc. all using different driving styles to achieve the necessary result. I watched the Silverstone GT race recently and was amazed at the lack of spectators. I did attend the '96 race (I think) when the heavens opened and there were many thousands there. It sems to me that dumbing it down has actually lost, rather than gained, support. |
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I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
13 Jul 2007, 07:28 (Ref:1962154) | #42 | |||
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005 |
13 Jul 2007, 10:04 (Ref:1962249) | #43 | ||
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The other big differance between the Grp C era and now in terms of spectator interest are the drivers. To us, ie 'sportscar fans' it does not really matter to much who drives the car, as long as they are fast, they do not need to be a 'name'
If you want to put bums on seats, ie attract the more general motorsport fan, or those from outside(!) having a name driver, ex or current F1 is clearly going to have the best appeal. This is what you found in the mid to late 80's Martin Brundle, Eddie Cheever, Derek Bell, John Watson, Andrea de Cesaris, Thierry Boutsen, Henri Pescarolo, Derek Warwick, Marc Surer, Manfred Winkelhock, Stefan Bellof, Riccardo Patrese, Alessandro Nannini and Guido Dacco ( ) These drivers had appeal to both sponsors and spectators and was a large part of why Group C suceeded. It was big news with big name sponsors like Canon, Rothmans, Martini, Shell, AEG, Kenwood driving a PR program. The BPR series and early GT1 had similliar appeal and it was also a success. IMHO the LMs and FIA GT promotion is akin to shouting down a well, the product is good but the general public really cant be arsed with it. Seeing races on telly with a handful of spectators sitting on deserted terraces is not the stuff of dreams for companies looking to sponsor a sport. |
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005 |
13 Jul 2007, 10:19 (Ref:1962263) | #44 | ||
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Most of those guys were regulars in the DTM as it then was. Running 956s or 935s in the German National Championship.
The same cars would then play in European sportscar races, with a guest driver or two, but the headliner was always in the car. At least, that's how I remember it! |
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
13 Jul 2007, 10:28 (Ref:1962276) | #45 | |||
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That right, if you had a 956 you could run it in the WSC one weekend, then the German series (remember the Norsring money sprit race!). All the time building support for the cars and drivers. If you felt like it the intersire was also a possiblity for any quite weekend. Same car paying for itself over weekend after weekend, now the cars sit in the workshop for most weekends. |
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Some people will tell you that slow is good - and it may be, on some days - but I am here to tell you that fast is better. H S Thompson 1937 - 2005 |
13 Jul 2007, 13:36 (Ref:1962444) | #46 | |
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Lack of stability & cost.
A few years ago SRO/FIA wanted GT's to be manufacturers and professional drivers only, so they did all they could to get rid of anyone not fitting those requirements. Costs spiralled dramatically and teams/drivers voted with their feet, leaving for other series (look at the way VdeV, Britcar, etc. have all flourished). Now SRO wants (needs?) the non-professional drivers & non-manufacturer teams back because the number have dwindled. Short races don't attract 'endurance' drivers nor, I suspect, would 1-driver events. A minimum of three hours, 2-3 drivers per car, no silly pitstop rules and I do like the idea of limiting the number of pitcrew... ...but then, I'd been saying for years that a sports-proto series that harked back to the 2-litre days!! |
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13 Jul 2007, 14:12 (Ref:1962481) | #47 | ||
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That is how you got the likes of Jagermeister, and Rothmans, and Shell, and Bitburger to act as title sponsors. LOTS of exposure for the money!
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Tim Yorath Ecurie Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch Fan of "the sacred monster Christophe Bouchut"... |
13 Jul 2007, 16:26 (Ref:1962592) | #48 | |||
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13 Jul 2007, 16:43 (Ref:1962605) | #49 | |
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So 2 hours, 1 driver, 1 pitstop? I can't see why that would be interesting to anyone. Sounds rather too much like 'F1-with-sportscars' to me!
Look back at events like the Silverstone 6 hours in the mid/late 70's - yes, hindsight may be wonderful, but surely the reason these were so well-populated were that they were accessible for more people, whether drivers or spectators? Long events (as I said, a minimum of three hours) with 2+ drivers (lower cost = more interest for the self-funded/sponsored driver). One question, however: If a pro "...can't do a 1 hour stint at present if its hot..." then why isn't "...3 drivers in 3 hours..." endurance driving? |
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13 Jul 2007, 16:50 (Ref:1962612) | #50 | |
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What a range of contrasting opinions here. I would try to solve the puzzle with races of different lengths - after all, if you can't agree on one, two or three hours, then just throw out the idea of the same length each time and make them all different.
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