F1 life after Bernie?

[nicanary]

point taken about the older overseaes venues - I've got nothing against them at all because they were part of the tradition.It's the newbies I've got a problem with. As other posters have insinuated, Bernie got all these zillions out of governments who may now pull the plug.The financial papers are already suggesting that China's growth may have been a bit too fast,too soon.

I acknowledge that most fans sit at home with the TV, but at least they would get to watch interesting circuits if it all returned to the old days, not these wretched Tilkedromes.

[nicanary]

Sorry to keep hogging this tread - I think up lots of things to say and then when I sit down to type all I come up with is drivel, and I lose my way.

I've just briefly looked for a back-issue of Motor Sport in which Nigel Roebuck very lucidly and accurately explained how things have arrived at the situation today. He knows his stuff.

Couldn't find what I was looking for (just like U2), but finally remembered the name of the faceless bankers - CVC, who own the rights to promote F1 after Bernie sold those rights to raise capital.They will presumably have a say in what happens if bernie quits.

I am also reminded that the Concorde Agreement expires in 2013 - will BCE use this moment to say I've done my bit? I feel the sport is in for a few big changes in the next few years. If he carries on,I suggest that we all take pitchforks and flaming torches to his mansion- aux barricades, mes enfants!

[bella]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

if BE hadn't moved F1 into places overseas when he did F1 would be in shambles right now. unlike your local investors BE understood the market and Europe's economic woes before anyone else did...we are kind of lucky he has stayed on this long.

this is really true. i hadn't thought of it from that particular angle before. what sort of venues would we have lost and had no replacements for if he hadn't started to look elsewhere?

going off on one slightly, how about hungary and the hungaroring? that was one of the first cash for a race 'new world' type venues, wasn't it? 20 years on that race is still a success, albeit suffering as the result of the economy woes.

it makes me wonder whether bernie's judgement is clouded slightly by the total success of that race and venue - the circuit was built purely for f1 use, and it's still there, still getting great crowds for the races it does hold. it has improved the profile of the place, and certainly helped the level of interest in motorsport in hungary.

is bernie thinking that if it worked there, then it's bound to work in these massive countries like china and india?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think the passion element is going anywhere at all. Utopians have tried to force a politically correct, health and safety, can't have fun because any fun is destroying the world, climate on society and there are definitely a lot of people still with a brain in their head that want to enjoy life and have passion for speed and having a good time. If anything this coming generation taking over Formula 1 is more emotional and passionate than some of the automatons like Frank Williams, Ron Dennis, Bernie, etc. of the previous generation. Despite the recession, motor sport is still expanding worldwide, new tracks are being built or refurbed and people are still wanting to compete and spectate. It is not an industry in perfect health but shows signs of moving forward and growing.

At one time Williams, Bernie E, Dennis were all the young upstart pups and it's probably not a bad idea for them to move on and take other roles, such as Williams did just the other day.

I don't think the passion is going away. I think what I may have not communicated that well is that those who are operating the controls at the very top (in this case whoever may replace Bernie at the top of his empire) may not have the same level of passion in the future. That many of the current "old guard" came up from the lower ranks as team owners, etc. That you can find photos of them actually turning wrenches at some point in the past. That they may have entered the sport for the love of it. I think for the most part that those days are over.

I think those who in the future that will have the most "passion" are going to be what I was calling the "professional journeyman". Those who are did rise up through the ranks (engineers, designers, etc.), but are paid to do what they do and most likely are not going to eventually gather the wealth required to take the next step up and become team owners, etc.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by bella

this is really true. i hadn't thought of it from that particular angle before. what sort of venues would we have lost and had no replacements for if he hadn't started to look elsewhere?

going off on one slightly, how about hungary and the hungaroring? that was one of the first cash for a race 'new world' type venues, wasn't it? 20 years on that race is still a success, albeit suffering as the result of the economy woes.

it makes me wonder whether bernie's judgement is clouded slightly by the total success of that race and venue - the circuit was built purely for f1 use, and it's still there, still getting great crowds for the races it does hold. it has improved the profile of the place, and certainly helped the level of interest in motorsport in hungary.

is bernie thinking that if it worked there, then it's bound to work in these massive countries like china and india?

I can't believe that I'm posting again.

I don't agree that the economy of Europe has caused these problems - it's the outrageous fees charged. State funding can pay it, but not organising clubs.The German GP if part-funded by the State in which the track is situated and they can't afford the ridiculous costs. BCE had to look elsewhere because he caused the problem in the first place.

Hungary as a former Soviet satellite state must surely have real economic problems, yet as you say the place is always well-supported.Without huge fees to pay, the old guard would still be in business.

[chillibowl]

thanks for the thoughtful responses. this is the most fun i have had for the whole off season!

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The difference between Europe and many of the recent additions to the calender is there is a lot less money coming from Government sources...

very true, but im not sure more gov't support in Germany or Belgium for example will do much more than help to cover their losses. maybe lower sanctioning fees could help but im not convinced that it would drive down ticket prices nor will it increase attendance. if anything the local promoters would just make more money. so something else is needed for that. i dont have an answer and BE seems to have given up looking for one...maybe the next person in charge will have better ideas on how to accomplish that.

Originally Posted by nicanary

I acknowledge that most fans sit at home with the TV, but at least they would get to watch interesting circuits if it all returned to the old days, not these wretched Tilkedromes.

would it make for better TV though? im not advocating more Singapore and Abu Dhabi type tracks but its hard to deny that they make for great images in HD. for better or worse people tune into that and sponsors follow.

Originally Posted by AndyS

I don't think people are calling for more races in Europe more that the quality circuits aren't lost in favour of these horrible Tilkedromes. I think the likes of Suzuka, Melbourne, Montreal and Sau Paulo are some of the best races on the calendar.

yeah i purposely ignored that part to help make my point. part of any sport is its connection to the past so that has to be part of the conversation. tradition and tracks that provide exciting races ase some of F1 most valuable assets so yes i agree it is short term to dismiss them in favour of finding more money today.

but its more than just BE who wants money for his pockets. the teams are equally just as guilty of this. Ferrari and the other car manus, the sponsors, the investors all want to be in Asia just as much if not more. he didnt drag them there, they put him in charge to lead them there.

Originally Posted by bella

is bernie thinking that if it worked there, then it's bound to work in these massive countries like china and india?

totally, he found a trick that worked and he will ride it for all its worth. so thats the perfect counterpoint right there...just because it worked in the past is no guarantee it will work in the future and since several of the new tracks are struggling its clearly not working out as well as planned. however i do still think it was right to try though.

its interesting times for the sport. as much as i defend the indefensible even i must admit the sport that i love is not the same as when i first fell in love with it. a revolution was called for earlier and that could be the answer...a complete shake up of the status-quo.

time will tell but for now it doesnt matter much since we will soon have a new season to distract us because the present is far more interesting than the future!

[bella]

Originally Posted by nicanary

I can't believe that I'm posting again.

I don't agree that the economy of Europe has caused these problems - it's the outrageous fees charged. State funding can pay it, but not organising clubs.The German GP if part-funded by the State in which the track is situated and they can't afford the ridiculous costs. BCE had to look elsewhere because he caused the problem in the first place.

Hungary as a former Soviet satellite state must surely have real economic problems, yet as you say the place is always well-supported.Without huge fees to pay, the old guard would still be in business.

(muhahahaha, welcome to the dark side)

sorry, i wasn't implying that it was europe's economy issues that have changed things. i was just using hungary as a big example of bernie's new circuits for cash policy that has worked well, and has stuck too. whether he gives them preferential treatment as a result of that initial situation i'm not sure, but i don't recall there being much shouting done by hungary about the race fees.

if you compare the facilities to the much-ranted about by bernie example of silverstone or even monza nowadays it's miles behind. swinging a cat in the paddock isn't an option, the buildings are ageing and the media facilities are pretty poor too. they simply don't have the money to renovate since it'd require some hefty structural work in the manner of the new spa pitlane.

but will he call them out on it? no. he's smarter than that, since the country clearly has no money. unlike the uk, we simply won't invest it for fear of public outcry or something like that.

[ECW Dan Selby]

But if the country has no money, why does he stick with them?

I'm not trying to nitpick, i'm just genuinely interested, because it's a very fair point. I don't recall Bernie ever calling Hungary out.

Selby

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by AndyS

As the last poster pointed out many of these new venues are govenment funded. When either said government gets sick of paying out, realises they are losing money or not getting value for money they will pull the race. Also no economy is safe from recession, there is still huge room for growth in many of these emerging economies but you can't keep growing at the rate they are for ever more. Although its a long way off at some point economic reality will catch up. If all of a sudden all these countries start pulling races and F1 has neglected its fan base who have all lost interest or moved on to other things then it really would be shambles.

To me its very short term thinking, you have to move with the times, which they are entirely right to do but you've always got to think of the long term as well. As we have discovered in recent times nothing is certain.

Well for one thing, F1 did the right thing seeking out new markets to bring in new fans, new sponsors, new tracks and so on. Some of course are going to work and be profitable and worthwhile and others might not be, but you'll never know until you try.

The world has changed a lot in 20 years. A lot of places previously considered inaccessible, now are. It was only inevitable that F1 would change with that.

A lot of these 2nd and 3rd world countries, once they got some money rolling in, have tried to buy prestige and one of the things they have done is build nice F1 tracks to bring in some attention and perhaps investment.

But now I think that boom is over and a lot of those countries faced with other infrastructure problems are going to look in a different way at spending millions, billions on F1.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

would it make for better TV though? im not advocating more Singapore and Abu Dhabi type tracks but its hard to deny that they make for great images in HD. for better or worse people tune into that and sponsors follow.

To go slightlty off topic, Abu Dhabi looks 'pretty' on the TV but Singapore looks like an indoor kart track (for once, I'd imagine it's a bit more special live. Like Le Mans but with F1 cars). These two circuits (one in my opinion) are the only Tilke circuits that look nice on TV. Malaysia could be added to that list thanks to the palm trees and grass.

With their vast expanses of tarmac these new circuits have little soul. Spa, Silverstone and other European circuits have plenty of green space which looks fresh and inviting on a TV screen.

[bella]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

But if the country has no money, why does he stick with them?

that's my question too - it doesn't make a huge amount of immediate sense. if it's the old boy actually having a bit of understanding then fair play, but why them and not belgium for example?

[nicanary]

This thread is really getting good.

It has shown me how little I consider things, and what an old f*rt I've become.

Once the red lights go out in 11 days time, it'll all be forgotten about.You know you love it really.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thanks for the thoughtful responses. this is the most fun i have had for the whole off season!

but its more than just BE who wants money for his pockets. the teams are equally just as guilty of this. Ferrari and the other car manus, the sponsors, the investors all want to be in Asia just as much if not more. he didnt drag them there, they put him in charge to lead them there

Yes the manufacturers, sponsors etc have been more than happy to go along with it. The poor old fans are just completely ignored.

This is turning into a very interesting thread indeed.

[nicanary]

Wot? No more posts?

I've just realised an analogy within sport - Man.United. The Glazer family bought the club promising investment but they were actually eyeing-up the income potential of the club's world-wide following.

They then used another of their companies to borrow against future revenues, thus indebting Man U to the tune of £600m or more.Thus the world's richest club ( in terms of "image" sales of merchandise etc.) is now forever in debt it can never repay.

It seems to me that the involvement of CVC in F1 is very similar. The sport now "owes" them so much that it can never get away from their grasp - I would imagine only a mega-rich Arab family or Russian oligarch could afford that sort of dosh.

Bernie had definitely changed the sport for ever - but who on earth would want to take the reins? It's almost a poisoned chalice scenario.

[bella]

the united comparison is a fair one, though i guess f1/cvc has no real assets unlike united which has this whopping stadium and various property like carrington etc (albeit owned by the bank). both do however have a lot of goodwill, history and spectator eyes, as it were, plus an instant media circus of the size you simply couldn't arrange on the fly.

unlike united, all the assets remain with the teams and owners and if they were to take their toys elsewhere, no doubt the fia would still be involved so the status would be retained, the prestige would be retained, there's plenty of circuits to visit and they have an instant workforce as long as the transition was quick and tidy.

as for a direct bernie replacement.... i can only suggest one name. ron dennis.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by bella

the united comparison is a fair one, though i guess f1/cvc has no real assets unlike united which has this whopping stadium and various property like carrington etc (albeit owned by the bank). both do however have a lot of goodwill, history and spectator eyes, as it were, plus an instant media circus of the size you simply couldn't arrange on the fly.

unlike united, all the assets remain with the teams and owners and if they were to take their toys elsewhere, no doubt the fia would still be involved so the status would be retained, the prestige would be retained, there's plenty of circuits to visit and they have an instant workforce as long as the transition was quick and tidy.

as for a direct bernie replacement.... i can only suggest one name. ron dennis.

That's an interesting point about the assets, but surely CVC has some sort of contract that means they, and only they, hold the rights to promote and stage F1 racing?The FIA, who I have made it plainly obvious should really be running the show, don't appear to have the legal right anymore to allow an alternative championsip.

Or have I got it all wrong? The teams have threatened before to "run away", but I would have thought that CVC would be able to take out an injunction.

Ron in charge? There'll be a lot of drooping eyelids at press conferences.

[bella]

Originally Posted by nicanary

Or have I got it all wrong? The teams have threatened before to "run away", but I would have thought that CVC would be able to take out an injunction.

how do you define "formula one" as a concept that can't be copied though? i suppose teams racing elsewhere would be in breach of some sort of contract, but then i'm sure there's plenty of clauses fom/bernie's lot have broken already.

[csirl]

Originally Posted by nicanary

That's an interesting point about the assets, but surely CVC has some sort of contract that means they, and only they, hold the rights to promote and stage F1 racing?The FIA, who I have made it plainly obvious should really be running the show, don't appear to have the legal right anymore to allow an alternative championsip.

Or have I got it all wrong? The teams have threatened before to "run away", but I would have thought that CVC would be able to take out an injunction.

Ron in charge? There'll be a lot of drooping eyelids at press conferences.

The teams are only signed up to 2013, so they are free to do as they please from that point onwards including running their own series with a different name which can still be endorsed by the FIA. CVC can do no more to stop the teams going to a new entity than the Football League could do when the top teams decided to form the Premiership.

[nicanary]

I absolutely agree with Bella - it's not a concept, but an actual formula as laid down by the FIA.

What I'm not sure about is whether Bernie/CVC have some sort of arrangement with the FIA to veto any non-championship races.

You can be sure that there would be writs galore flying about, and any team not complying with the Law of BCE would find life very difficult.

I've just lost the gist of my argument - NURSE! I want my nap.

[chillibowl]

they need places to race though and i imagine/guessing many of the classic tracks are locked up already. also i suppose the FIA could question the status of all other events in a country if it chooses to host a rival F1 series...it could be war!

Ron Denis hey? thats actually a great suggestion. he has the right experience and background, knows all the relevant groups and people, has the financial expertise...is this something that he would be interested in or ever talked about before? he seems too invested in Mclaren's future though to walk away from that.

[AndyS]

Ron Dennis, when you think about it I'm struggling to think of anybody else. In the past I'd always thought Todt maybe a fair bet but he's not an option really anymore. I did briefly think Dave Richards once in the past but I don't think so anymore.

As to who may take the sport on from CVC I think the only conceivable buyers would be from the Middle East, they have the money and the interest in the sport.

When all the nonsense blew up about a break away series before, Bernie and the FIA didn't seem to have an answer. The teams got pretty close to going and had already started negotiations for venues etc and there was no mention of legal challenges from Bernie and/or the FIA. Its a very interesting point, but I agree it would result in an all out war if they weren't careful. As the FIA Presidential election proved the FIA has some enemies among some of the national motorsports associations. I seem to recall more than one threatening to walk away.

[wolfhound]

Autosport.com has an article on this by Dieter Rencken subscribers only unfortunely
but he expects a major disagreement at some stage during the season about the next concorde agreement as the parties start to negotiate about the future.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...ddock-in-2012/

There are now at least four parties involved FIA, FOM,FOTA and non FOTA but I can't imagine HRT being on the same wavelength as Ferrari.

CVC has a relatively weak hand currently. If they are trying to sell at the moment with no agreement post 2012, so it is in their interest to strike a deal, but their 81 year old chief may have a different agenda.

[bella]

remember toro rosso, red bull racing, ferrari and... iirc sauber aren't in fota any more too? so it's a little bigger than just hrt with their toys at the ready, it's any team with anything to do with ferrari...

this mentions all the teams outside of fota: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97624

[Richard C]

Interesting article from James Allen about future ownership. Another view as to what the future may look like...

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/0...-in-the-sport/

[Bononi]

The future is bright...