IMSA You can’t get excited about a race with these safety car and stoppage rules

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

We may be able to come up with a better solution, for fans, but if the teams and series like the status quo we can't really say much about it.

And there is that.

One consequence of having FCY (which you have for the safety premise) is that it makes getting a lap back more difficult.

So while this makes it easier, it potentially helps an injustice. Albeit with the compensation higher than the loss.

[kobefly]

Originally Posted by Adam43

To solve this you can go one of two ways, a solution that is more likely to unfairly penalise a competitor, or one that is unfairly benefit a competitor. They’ve gone with later.

You put it in great words, there is the key!

Benefiting over penalizing competitors sounds nice BUT when you say "a competitor" you mean "a competitor that is running behind another competitor". This means that this system is likely to detriment those competitors running ahead of other competitors.

I would rather benefit the competitor that, at any point of the race, has done well enough to be in front. There is merit involved in holding the lead.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by kobefly

You put it in great words, there is the key!

Benefiting over penalizing competitors sounds nice BUT when you say "a competitor" you mean "a competitor that is running behind another competitor". This means that this system is likely to detriment those competitors running ahead of other competitors.

I would rather benefit the competitor that, at any point of the race, has done well enough to be in front. There is merit involved in holding the lead.

I can see the logic in your view. You are saying that the procedure should be drafted in such a way that benefits the driver(s) ahead.

I guess that could be seen as 'track position is key'.

There is another way to see that approach though. If you approach the race from a competitive angle where track position is the priority, then you are reducing the likelihood of close competition.

It would be the inverse of the first 20 hours being a waste of time. You are saying that once a car has a clear lead, then a FCY would only exaggerate that. So in consideration of the value of racing, we would end up in a situation where the last 20 hours of the race are meaningless.

[Akrapovic]

The thing we're not really discussing here is the quality of the entries now days.

We had SC periods before. The difference was that cars broke a LOT more back in the day, so even SC periods made no real difference. Now, mechanical issues are actually the exception, not the norm. It's now expected that a manufacturer backed entry will NOT have mechanical issues. This alone makes things much much tighter.

If you look at 1996 (picked a random year), the gap between 2nd and 3rd was almost 50 laps. Less than half the field finished. There were 11 FCYs. So even if you gave 2 laps back per yellow (double today), then the 3rd place car was 30 laps off the lead.

A big reason it is tighter now is cars now break a LOT less than they used to.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by kobefly

You put it in great words, there is the key!

Thanks.

To be clear in what I wrote I am not arguing one way of the other.

But when I go through the logic of the considerations I see two similar situations. Neither ideal.

I also see, man it’s not easy or straight forward to craft these. And certainly it isn’t possible to have an ideal solution.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can see the logic in your view. You are saying that the procedure should be drafted in such a way that benefits the driver(s) ahead.

I guess that could be seen as 'track position is key'.

There is another way to see that approach though. If you approach the race from a competitive angle where track position is the priority, then you are reducing the likelihood of close competition.

It would be the inverse of the first 20 hours being a waste of time. You are saying that once a car has a clear lead, then a FCY would only exaggerate that. So in consideration of the value of racing, we would end up in a situation where the last 20 hours of the race are meaningless.

Interesting.

This is where I’m coming down on it he more I think about it. Same probably, but the other way round.

I can certainly see why IMSA made the choice.

And we are only really considering the lost a lap situation here. There is more to the fairness than that.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The thing we're not really discussing here is the quality of the entries now days.

We had SC periods before. The difference was that cars broke a LOT more back in the day, so even SC periods made no real difference. Now, mechanical issues are actually the exception, not the norm. It's now expected that a manufacturer backed entry will NOT have mechanical issues. This alone makes things much much tighter.

If you look at 1996 (picked a random year), the gap between 2nd and 3rd was almost 50 laps. Less than half the field finished. There were 11 FCYs. So even if you gave 2 laps back per yellow (double today), then the 3rd place car was 30 laps off the lead.

A big reason it is tighter now is cars now break a LOT less than they used to.

Interesting. I’m not up enough on how the rules have changed over the years, but we would have a much different dynamic.

On the very specific of laps and wave rounds, I’m not sure it impacts us that much. I might be wrong if we look at previous years and other races.

[seanyb505]

I was trying to explain this to my wife on Sunday following a retelling of the final lap. In the states we can't get away from safety cars. Not going away. So the question is which direction do you take in terms of giving advantages or disadvantages.

In the words of my good buddy Michael masi, it's a car race. We go motor racing. If you can have less of a race or more, the series, entrants, and fans by and large want more, not less. What if instead of gaining two laps an entrant loses two laps? Great we just took even more wind from the sails of the race.

It really is lesser of two evils, and we're not really recalling the greater of two evils really evil at all. When in truth the majority doesn't want that option at all

[fieldodreams79]

It will always amaze me how much time and effort some put into things they're not really interested in. Some responses are informative and where the convo has gone is of interest, but the original intent is baffling to me.

Can't wait for the 1 hour (or 30 mins) of Sebring.

[kobefly]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You are saying that once a car has a clear lead, then a FCY would only exaggerate that.

I am not. When SC comes out time difference for all cars in the same lap gets erased. That still benefits those behind. However, by not letting them go by after everyone pitted and still holding the pack under SC you are not giving away laps.
The only risk, that does running behind would be facing, is to lose a lap if the yellow flag came out at a bad moment of the pit strategy for them (which, yes, can be unfair, but I would rather be unfair with those that did not do merit to be in front).

[kobefly]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

It will always amaze me how much time and effort some put into things they're not really interested in.

I usually don´t watch IMSA but the event and quality of teams and drivers seemed very interesting to me.
That interest vanished as soon as I got to know how the FCY procedure worked and that´s when I stopped watching and came back with 2 hours to go.
Following 15 hours just to see if someone retires or hits big trouble is, from my point of view, far from enjoying drivers and cars making something that could mean the victory or a good result at the end of the day.
The fact that a driver gets in the car and pulls out some amazing stints in the middle of the night in a race like this has zero value. A driver jumping into a car and having 5 spins, as long as the car has no damage, has no cost either.
Enjoy the 90mins of every single race of the season

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by kobefly

I am not. When SC comes out time difference for all cars in the same lap gets erased. That still benefits those behind. However, by not letting them go by after everyone pitted and still holding the pack under SC you are not giving away laps.
The only risk, that does running behind would be facing, is to lose a lap if the yellow flag came out at a bad moment of the pit strategy for them (which, yes, can be unfair, but I would rather be unfair with those that did not do merit to be in front).

I think this is not making that much difference to what we have. We still have everyone who is on the same lap as the driver ahead unfairly gains, as you say. This effects more cars more often, albeit to an individual lesser extent, but overall I suspect much more impactful on the race result. Certainly was this year.

And it does mean that it becomes even harder to get a lap back. If you lose a lap you have until the next yellow to get it back, otherwise you have to start all over again. Even if you had a 0.5s a lap advantage you would need a green period of 3.5 hours to get the lap back.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by kobefly

I usually don´t watch IMSA but the event and quality of teams and drivers seemed very interesting to me.

That interest vanished as soon as I got to know how the FCY procedure worked and that´s when I stopped watching and came back with 2 hours to go.

Following 15 hours just to see if someone retires or hits big trouble is, from my point of view, far from enjoying drivers and cars making something that could mean the victory or a good result at the end of the day.

The fact that a driver gets in the car and pulls out some amazing stints in the middle of the night in a race like this has zero value. A driver jumping into a car and having 5 spins, as long as the car has no damage, has no cost either.

Enjoy the 90mins of every single race of the season

I'll enjoy what I want to, thx!

[Adam43]

Spot on. We’ve established that we all understand the situation and we are all making choices on what we watch and enjoy. So let’s leave that.

Out of that though we managed a decent discussion that made me, at least, think again about how we got here, what the priorities of the series is, and also what the consequences of some of those choices are.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by kobefly

I will just wait for Daytona 2023 and come here to see who is willing to bet 100 USD that there are not going to be Safety Car periods. I will bet my house on my side.

Oh kobe, it's time to fly!

[GT3_Fan]

Solution is VERY simple.

1. Code 60 for debris and stalled car situations. Those are handled in 30 to 120 seconds.

2. Current safety car procedure for full crashes and inclement weather

Most of the safety cars in the Daytona 24 was for stalled cars by the way.

The gaps built up are important and well-earned and need to be maintained as much as possible in an endurance race especially.

[broadrun96]

Code 60 is non-starter, see insurance companies. It’s fairly simple to get, yet lost on so many people. It ain’t for you but for those actually on the tracks

[Coach Ep]

I'd like to see IMSA applying the short caution procedure for every FCY and close the pits. That would save 12-15 mins of yellow flag running on average. Each caution! Series is already familiar with the procedure so nothing new needs to be introduced or getting used to. It's an easy change and can be made overnight without disadvantaging anyone.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I'd like to see IMSA applying the short caution procedure for every FCY and close the pits. That would save 12-15 mins of yellow flag running on average. Each caution! Series is already familiar with the procedure so nothing new needs to be introduced or getting used to. It's an easy change and can be made overnight without disadvantaging anyone.

And if anybody needed emergency service or fuel, that option is still there - with consequences of course.

[tux]

I dont really know what to say other than i tend to agree with the original post however if there wasn't really any on track action would i bother to tune in for the last 12 hours? or the last 6? Its one of the big reasons why the GTWC SC/FCY procedure is a blessing and a curse. I think its mostly why ive never warmed to Creventic races. The cars are good, the driving talent is decent but beyond the first hour it feels like there is very little real on track action?

[MGDavid]

Seems to be a predominant need for instant gratification. Like the difference between watching soccer and cricket. It takes patience and deeper understanding to appreciate the longer games - and may it always be so.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Seems to be a predominant need for instant gratification. Like the difference between watching soccer and cricket. It takes patience and deeper understanding to appreciate the longer games - and may it always be so.

Nah. Cricket is just boring Kidding. I've always wanted to give it a try before I get to old to play it and have found myself watching a little; I can't stick around for four days, but major golf tournaments? Yes, please.

Back to the subject. I do think there's no doubt things need adjusting and I do tend to get angry when FCYs are thrown to quick followed by a lengthy wave around process, but I also get really bent when someone pits or doesn't and gets completely burned by an incident they're not even involved with. Regarding the latter, I think IMSA is pretty decent while IndyCar is the absolute pits (pun intended).

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I'd like to see IMSA applying the short caution procedure for every FCY and close the pits. That would save 12-15 mins of yellow flag running on average. Each caution! Series is already familiar with the procedure so nothing new needs to be introduced or getting used to. It's an easy change and can be made overnight without disadvantaging anyone.

I'd be in full support of this. This could allow you to see a potential caution (ie stopped car on course), dive in and get in before they close pitlane, shaking things up a little with strategy. Otherwise, field frozen, essentially, clean up the mess, get back to green, with no wave bys etc.

Drawbacks are if you get a big incident that requires a lengthy caution late in a fuel run. Solution then could be call a FULL yellow and do the full IMSA thing? So reverse it with quickies always, followed by long ones when needed. Alright.

[rx555]

Originally Posted by GT3_Fan

Solution is VERY simple.

Most of the safety cars in the Daytona 24 was for stalled cars by the way.

I find it infuriating how many cars just stop in random places on the track that lead to FCY. Drivers used to be taught to pull over to a corner station or out of the way. Now most just stop on track. I know it's not always possible but still. I think they know if they do pull off, they may not be brought back to the pits in a timely fashion, but that's endurance racing in my book.

[PhilipR]

I understand it is a sport and entertainment - so longer FCYs can allow all cars to pit and get back in position and ensure entertaining racing all through

However I have an issue with the lap back in IMSA. I find it unfair if you drove better, kept out of trouble and were able to open a 2 lap lead. Then due to 2 late safety cars, your opponent catches up to you and then if they happen to have a faster car(better set up or better BOP) they can overtake you and win the race - meaning all your hard work and doing better than others counts for little

My solution would be, get your lap back but you start at the end of the field, meaning you have to overtake the other class cars - thus allowing the one that did better to open a gap

I found it irritating when Imsa Radio gave Wayne Taylor the strategy of the race award for clawing back 2 laps and then the superior speed of the Acura allowed them to get 2nd place - but we all know this was only possible due to the late FCYs and not due to strategy

[Nick Woodbury]

Carrying this over to this thread. Got to get this off my chest once more because I love the series and am all worked up over FCY procedures again!


"Originally Posted by GT3_Fan View Post
Seriously what is the point. All 8 GTP cars are on the same lap after 5 hours. Where is the endurance factor? All of these safety cars ruin it. No wonder I was more into the WEC Friday race. That was more authentic. The IMSA safety car procedures make this a joke. 11.5 hours of a parade at speed (and often not) and 30 minutes of real racing with the announcers saying at the end how its the greatest thing in history. Its old.

I hope others notice this too."


100% Agree. Sadly, it's the nascar effect.

To put it bluntly while also being a bit cutthroat, this lucky dog and wave by stuff ought to be abolished immediately. I don't care about teams getting upset because they are put out of contention and lose money or whatever because they can't get their lap back or were caught behind a safety car at a bad time. That is either your fault and/or your problem to solve. Maybe you should drive faster so you don't get lapped? You signed up for it, deal with it. I come here to watch racing, not a 30-45 minute FCY procedure for a dead stick, a minor spin or a piece of debris that is miles off the racing line.

A race continuing naturally and on merit is far more important to me than everyone being treated fairly because the sanctioning body has a badly misguided desire to be the big daddy protector for the investors and stakeholders.

[broadrun96]

You know that knob on the TV, you can turn it and watch something else. Oh yeah, and pretending it's nascar shows you're effin clueless, similar rules were in alms but heaven forbid actually have a complaint that's not oh NASCAR in basis. We get it, you're an elite mind and you know how to run something you've had ZERO ZERO ZERO actual day to day involvement in.

[fergus_r]

Originally Posted by Nick Woodbury

A race continuing naturally and on merit is far more important to me than everyone being treated fairly because the sanctioning body has a badly misguided desire to be the big daddy protector for the investors and stakeholders.

But that's exactly why the championship is as successful as it is.

I'd rather watch 54 cars tearing round Sebring with wave-bys and slightly long FCYs, than 25 cars and less time under yellow.

The great thing about motorsport is that we have different championships catering for different tastes both for spectators and competitors. Hopefully you saw the WEC race yesterday, which was clean with very little time under FCY, but didn't have as much competition compared to today's IMSA race.

I prefer IMSA, but I did watch and enjoy the entire WEC race - knowing in advance that it was going to be very different to today's race.