[BTCC] Round Three, Thruxton 28-29 May, Races 7,8&9

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by antnee

Not remember a few years back when there were 6 cars battling for 1st place and had about 4 car lengths separating them?

Edit - found the image

That was the race I thought of, race one in 2016. One of the best BTCC races I've ever seen.

There was also a fantastic Mini race in 2020, where Leo Panayiotou won by passing three cars into the final corner, before Alex Jay cut the final chicane to provisionally take the win before it was taken away: https://www.minichallenge.co.uk/2020...on-thriller-2/

And VIVA GT, is this the Mini Se7en race you were referring to?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNs5...Ns5BJM0Ahk&t=0

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mprmke

At a speed circuit, the balance of performance measures should hinder Ingram. If it doesn't, the hybrid BoP isn't anywhere near as effective as ballast at the moment.

I'm not sure this would be the case. The hybrid deployment is most effective at lower speed, and in the early stages of traction.

I think that the high speed nature of the circuit means that the hybrid effect is negated. Circuits where HEM will have the most effect (IMO) are those that are traditionally RWD favoured - e.g accelerating from low speed corners. This would be places such as the hairpin at Knockhill or Croft.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure this would be the case. The hybrid deployment is most effective at lower speed, and in the early stages of traction.

I think that the high speed nature of the circuit means that the hybrid effect is negated. Circuits where HEM will have the most effect (IMO) are those that are traditionally RWD favoured - e.g accelerating from low speed corners. This would be places such as the hairpin at Knockhill or Croft.

In principle I tend to agree with you but wouldn't this effect/advantage be nullified slightly as the electrical boost isn't operational below a certain speed and when traction is limited?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

In principle I tend to agree with you but wouldn't this effect/advantage be nullified slightly as the electrical boost isn't operational below a certain speed and when traction is limited?

I think slightly - yes.

In general, the lower the speed the greater the effect of more power gives.
At Croft and Thruxton for instance - the cars spend more time accelerating through the 120kph mark than they would at Thruxton.

[Sodemo]

I asked the question about this in another thread but never got an answer.

If a driver hits the hybrid button and hybrid deployment starts, if they then encounter a situation where they get wheelspin (going over a bad bump, hit a kerb, put one wheel onto the grass), what happens? Does the Hybrid deployment just stop dead or do the wheels spin up and the boost effect carries on?

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I asked the question about this in another thread but never got an answer.

If a driver hits the hybrid button and hybrid deployment starts, if they then encounter a situation where they get wheelspin (going over a bad bump, hit a kerb, put one wheel onto the grass), what happens? Does the Hybrid deployment just stop dead or do the wheels spin up and the boost effect carries on?

has no effect. just the same as when they kerb hop the momentary loss of traction doesnt cut the hybrid off.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

has no effect. just the same as when they kerb hop the momentary loss of traction doesnt cut the hybrid off.

Thanks for the answer. I guess the potential for FWD cars to get increased front tyre wear is greater then due to the likelihood of wheel spin.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Thanks for the answer. I guess the potential for FWD cars to get increased front tyre wear is greater then due to the likelihood of wheel spin.

Read an article about the Hybrid recently it would seem the RWD cars have the heavy motor in the bellhousing whereas the FWD cars have it hung higher up ahead of the axle line To me it seems the FWD have been massively disadvantaged by all of this

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Read an article about the Hybrid recently it would seem the RWD cars have the heavy motor in the bellhousing whereas the FWD cars have it hung higher up ahead of the axle line To me it seems the FWD have been massively disadvantaged by all of this

I wouldn't say massively disadvantaged. It is true that the mounting is different between FWD and RWD, but this has been addressed in the updated CoG calculations for RWD cars this season.

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

you are overanalyzing things

While this is definitely true as there is very little chance of these predictions being correct given all the extra factors that come into play in the BTCC, it is still a fun activity. Including the data from 2020 and 2019 adjusts my predicted results to be:

1 Josh Cook
2 Dan Cammish
3 Ash Sutton
4 Jake Hill
5 Adam Morgan
6 Rory Butcher
7 George Gamble
8 Gordon Shedden
9 Tom Ingram
10 Colin Turkington
11 Dan Rowbottom
12 Bobby Thompson
13 Daniel Lloyd
14 Jason Plato
15 Stephen Jelley
16 Tom Chilton
17 Ollie Jackson
18 Michael Crees
19 Jade Edwards
20 Ash Hand
21 Jack Butel
22 Ricky Collard
23 Sam Osborne
24 Aron Smith
25 Dexter Patterson
26 Nic Hamilton
27 Rick Parfitt
28 Aiden Moffat
29 Will Powell

[crmalcolm]

Additional TV coverage details:

Qualifying LIVE: Saturday 28 May
ITV.com/BTCC from 1515

Raceday LIVE: Sunday 29 May
ITV4 & ITV4 HD 1100-1815
ITV4 +1 1200-1915
ITV.com/BTCC 1100-1815

Highlights: Saturday 4 June
ITV4 & ITV4 HD 1105-1240
ITV 4 +1 1205-1340
ITV Hub Available anytime for the next 30 days

Highlights: Sunday 5 June
ITV4 & ITV4 HD 0755-0925
ITV4 +1 0855-1025

Highlights: Wednesday 8 June
ITV & ITV HD 2340-0055
ITV +1 0040-0155

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I wouldn't say massively disadvantaged. It is true that the mounting is different between FWD and RWD, but this has been addressed in the updated CoG calculations for RWD cars this season.

Ah so the BMW pace is just a blip then Clearly the infinity is no long worth considering due to average drivers and mediocre Teams running them

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Ah so the BMW pace is just a blip then Clearly the infinity is no long worth considering due to average drivers and mediocre Teams running them

When you say 'BMW pace' - what exactly are you referring to here?

Their pace has been good so far this season, and that would be expected from one of the best packages on the grid (engineer/driver/car).
The Infiniti has lost two of the components that made it a title winner, and the result can be seen.

Personally, I think the BMW performance (as a car) has been oversold so far this season. Yes, there are good results, but the car is only at the top of the Jack Sears Trophy. In other championships it lies 5th (Drivers), 3rd (Manufacturers), 4th (Teams). The strong showing I think is as much down to the drivers as anything else.

One only has to look at the results of Ingram, Sutton and Cook to see that the driver is still the most important factor.

[antnee]

You have 2 of the best drivers on the grid in one of the best teams (if not the best) and people query why they are quick.

6 races so far, all fastest laps are from drivers in the top 7.
1 Hyundai
1 Honda
2 BMW
1 Toyota
1 Ford
Out of the top 7, it is only Josh Cook who hasn't got a fastest lap, yet he has most wins.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by antnee

6 races so far, all fastest laps are from drivers in the top 7.
1 Hyundai
1 Honda
2 BMW
1 Toyota
1 Ford
Out of the top 7, it is only Josh Cook who hasn't got a fastest lap, yet he has most wins.

And I think that sums up the situation well.

6 different drivers, 5 different makes, the competition is close across a wide range of entrants.

Yet still - some will claim that something has to be done about BMW dominance...

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'm not sure this would be the case. The hybrid deployment is most effective at lower speed, and in the early stages of traction.

I think that the high speed nature of the circuit means that the hybrid effect is negated. Circuits where HEM will have the most effect (IMO) are those that are traditionally RWD favoured - e.g accelerating from low speed corners. This would be places such as the hairpin at Knockhill or Croft.

That's a fair point, and every car/driver/team/track combination will have its own strengths and weaknesses, but BoP needs to have some degree of consistent effect across the board.

I prefer what hybrid brings over ballast and option tyres, and think it should be far more technical and a more organic skill in itself, but I'm not convinced the system is anywhere close to being an effective BoP measure yet.

[porsche962fan]

anyone remember the Neal interview where hementions that this truck is problematic for the hybrid cos it doesn't have opportunities to recharge

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Personally, I think the BMW performance (as a car) has been oversold so far this season.

I think it's just been masked by Hill and Turkington's battle and the wet weather at the last meeting. In the dry I expect to see them right up the front.

[S griffin]

A lot depends on the track too. This isn't a traditional RWD track, so we'll see how the Beemers get on this weekend. We need them to have a solid weekend to see how great their car really is

[hen henths]

It may not be a traditionally RWD track but Turks has often gone well there, with 6 2nd places and 3 wins in BMWs from 2007.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by hen henths

It may not be a traditionally RWD track but Turks has often gone well there, with 6 2nd places and 3 wins in BMWs from 2007.

True - but then hasn't he often gone well at most tracks?

In the timeframe you mention, his wins at each track reads:
Croft - 10
Oulton - 8
Donington - 6
Snetterton - 5
Brands - 4
Knockhill - 3
Rockingham - 2
Silverstone - 1

IMO - I think it underlines the fact that Thruxton is one of the least-favoured tracks if over the course of 9 seasons (4 with titles) and 33 races, he only has 3 wins.

[hen henths]

I suppose it will be a good test of this claimed BMW superiority then. In 2019 (probably BMW's best year in the BTCC?), first time out at Thruxton, AJ got two wins and the second race was a BMW 1-2 with AJ and Turks. If the weather's good this weekend and they don't have bad luck, and they still can't get a couple of top two finishes, then I'll agree that the performance has been oversold so far this year.

[Sodemo]

Thruxton is a strange circuit, on paper it should really suit the RWD cars but history has shown this not to be the case. I am surprised that the FWD cars don’t get more front left tyre drop off considering that is the main tyre stressed over the course of the lap.

[porsche962fan]

wouldn't surprise me if Cookie will leave as championship leader

[porsche962fan]

sigh of relief, not another BMW front row

Cooky now only 7 points behind Tingram