Track Limits

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This is the link to MSUK's page: https://www.motorsportuk.org/amendme...-track-limits/


The problem, as highlighted at the most recent BTCC meeting at Snetterton is/was that there were only Judges of Fact at 3 corners during the meeting. It seemed that it was a free for all everywhere else on the circuit which makes it illogical and certainly inconsistent. And that is not fair for any driver that is penalised on those 3 corners, but witnessing other drivers transgressing around the rest of the circuit.

There are observers at most points around the circuit. It is their responsibility to report any transgressions of track limits. Then it is the C of C who takes necessary steps.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

There are observers at most points around the circuit. It is their responsibility to report any transgressions of track limits. Then it is the C of C who takes necessary steps.

That may be true, however Tim Harvey made a point during his commentary last weekend that, for the TOCA meeting, they were only monitoring 3 corners for track limits. They even permitted one driver to have almost all wheels on the grass in an overtake on the approach to the bridge. He certainly wouldn't have been able to do that if he was treating the track as if it was a street circuit with armco adjacent to the white line. And that didn't need any observer; it was quite blatant and was caught in the live TV broadcast.

[VIVA GT]

I don't expect many track limit violations this weekend at Monaco...

[Plantagenet]

I felt the letter was well written. As discussed, the issues will be in the implementation and the practicalities of this. For example, 2022 Walter Hayes outcome was still being disputed in 2023 (!!!!) so this piece will need to be iron-out.
Interestingly, gossip in the paddock was that JP's landscaping bill was the main driver of this. He he.
This said, i agree personally with the direction here.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I don't expect many track limit violations this weekend at Monaco...

Really?

The Chicane and the exit of the swimming pool often see drivers leaving the track to...er "defend" their position.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I don't expect many track limit violations this weekend at Monaco...

good point!

Unfortunately there is the (relatively) new swimming pool corner. Although that might take your front wing off if you go too mad.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Unfortunately there is the (relatively) new swimming pool corner. Although that might take your front wing off if you go too mad.

Who could imagine that some drivers are testing soft spots of the rails to push (Leclerc/Verstappen)??

[S griffin]

At least there won’t be punished for missing the final chicane in this weekend’s GP!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Installed since a long time. what is said about nowadays:
https://www.autosport.com/btcc/news/...d-up/10468190/

It was inevitable that there would be a bedding-in time while drivers who have a long history of abusing track limits learn to drive within the limits. I'll bet that most of the drivers who were penalised at those first meetings will be a lot more circumspect next time. If they can consistently drive to the edge of whatever hard run-off is provided, then they can consistently drive to the white line.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

After the debacle of the Austrian track limits and time penalties.

It may not be relevant to the driver who can't seem much from the cockpit anyway, but given the track limit is defined as the white line.... why are kerbs usually white and another colour?

Why not 2 colours other than white so that the white line it clearly defined around the circuit and beyond them the kerbs are also clearly defined.
Surely this would also help the adjudication or marginal calls where the tyre is possibly across the white line onto the white section of kerb.

I'm guessing it may also be easier for TV direction, and the paying punter to visually see some of these transgressions as well.

I realise there is nationalistic colouring and perhaps sponsorships considerations at some circuits, but given the expanse of run off Flags and Logos can be painted there.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

After the debacle of the Austrian track limits and time penalties.

It may not be relevant to the driver who can't seem much from the cockpit anyway, but given the track limit is defined as the white line.... why are kerbs usually white and another colour?

Why not 2 colours other than white so that the white line it clearly defined around the circuit and beyond them the kerbs are also clearly defined.
Surely this would also help the adjudication or marginal calls where the tyre is possibly across the white line onto the white section of kerb.

I'm guessing it may also be easier for TV direction, and the paying punter to visually see some of these transgressions as well.

I realise there is nationalistic colouring and perhaps sponsorships considerations at some circuits, but given the expanse of run off Flags and Logos can be painted there.

My 2 cents is that what is outside the white line (color) shouldn't matter for determining if they have exceeded track limits. It should just be about the transition from the inside of the circuit to the white line which seems pretty clear. And anything outside of that is for other informational purposes that are not tied to the topic of circuit boundary (i.e visual identification of location of rumble strips or other curbing)

As to the color selection for outside the white line. As we know it seems to be predominantly white and red. and probably two colors in a pattern to provide depth and visual awareness cue. That a single color may not work as well. Given the two colors, I think they probably want contrasting colors with one being light and one dark.

If your idea is to have three colors (white, and two others used for outside the white line), then I expect you would need very good contrast between all three which would be a bit harder to accomplish.

Richard

[Taxi645]

I'll repeat what I said last year. Just put reservable 1 meter wide plating on the outside of the first kerb. One side is tarmac or tarmac equal friction coefficient so the bikes have their safe track limit. The other side is a very low friction coefficient sort of astroturf surface. If you go on it, you will definitely lose time.



You flip the plates depending on if you have a bike or car race. No need to store them anywhere, no need for an optical track limit system with penalties. If you go outside the wide line the track will punish you automatically.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

I'll repeat what I said last year. Just put reservable 1 meter wide plating on the outside of the first kerb. One side is tarmac or tarmac equal friction coefficient so the bikes have their safe track limit. The other side is a very low friction coefficient sort of astroturf surface. If you go on it, you will definitely lose time.



You flip the plates depending on if you have a bike or car race. No need to store them anywhere, no need for an optical track limit system with penalties. If you go outside the wide line the track will punish you automatically.

Surely the concern with such plates would be that they get lifted by the suction effect of the cars. We have seen drain covers etc, being pulled up that were supposedly welded down.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Surely the concern with such plates would be that they get lifted by the suction effect of the cars. We have seen drain covers etc, being pulled up that were supposedly welded down.

That's why they invented bolts...


They get bolted into place into the concrete below, I probably should have added that.

[billy bleach]

Track limits a blight on the sport from F1 to a Clubby at Lydden- the woke brigade who are more worried about there grass than the sport will drive everyone away

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

One side is tarmac or tarmac equal friction coefficient so the bikes have their safe track limit. The other side is a very low friction coefficient sort of astroturf surface.

So, something like grass. Preferably a bit bumpy so they a) know they're on it, b) don't want to be, and c) it slows them down when they are.

Just like Mid-Ohio. No track limits problems there.

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Track limits a blight on the sport from F1 to a Clubby at Lydden- the woke brigade who are more worried about there grass than the sport will drive everyone away

Can't say I even understand that comment. What has 'woke' to do with anything? Odd.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Track limits a blight on the sport from F1 to a Clubby at Lydden- the woke brigade who are more worried about there grass than the sport will drive everyone away

Not sure track limits at Lydden is much of a problem anyway - only place it can be a thing is on the run down the hill into Paddock, but that's been enforced for years. Anywhere else you're on the grass anyway.

With all the money floating around F1 and Moto GP you'd ahve thought they'd be able to come up with solutions that suit both (or are easily swappable as per Mr taxi's post above).

[Peter Mallett]

I think the problem arises from the way it's been introduced. I don't believe the drivers are doing anything different to previous years. Fundamentally you can't ask a racing driver to drive slowly. Also by the time they've learned that they've transgressed they've probably been past the particular corner a couple of times anyway. Silverstone will be interesting.

[TrapezeArtist]

The problems of cutting corners and running wide have been creeping up on us for more than 20 years (what year was it when they put those loose tyre bundles on the chicanes at Monza?). But let's take an optimistic attitude to what happened in Austria last weekend. The FIA can no longer sweep the problem under the carpet or stick an Elastoplast on it (or whatever other cliche you might choose ). They are going to have to act decisively and I am looking forward to seeing what they do.

[Aysedasi]

Here you go....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Here you go....

I'm pleased to see you treating this with the seriousness it deserves. ?

[Sodemo]

I don’t think it needs to be over complicated, a simple 3 metre minimum strip of grass at the track edge is all that is required in my opinion. You can then have tarmac after that or more grass or gravel. A thinner strip will just invite drivers to floor it over the strip and therefore be ineffective.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I don’t think it needs to be over complicated, a simple 3 metre minimum strip of grass at the track edge is all that is required in my opinion. You can then have tarmac after that or more grass or gravel. A thinner strip will just invite drivers to floor it over the strip and therefore be ineffective.

How do you prevent the grass from becoming damaged and resulting in divots?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I'm pleased to see you treating this with the seriousness it deserves. ?

Well, after the absurd display in Austria, I thought a reasonably absurd solution was quite apt.....

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

How do you prevent the grass from becoming damaged and resulting in divots?

Mix it with concrete? Is that grasscrete still a thing?