Parity Review?

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Let's just ban Walkinshaw performance

FINALLY, you make some sense ... nice work

[Wrighty05]

From what i saw at Bahrain there was a power advantage. But not to Holden.

And just for interests sake, imho no parity adjustment is needed.

[Luke Plaizier]

Motorsport eNews is today (6/11/07) reporting that the Parity Formula hasn't yet been triggered for 2007.

Whether this is just them rehashing their 2-week old story on the topic, or offering fresh news that the trigger still has not been reached after Bahrain, is not clear. But it's enough to add further ambiguity to the topic.


Luke

[vicecityrocker]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Yeah, great post! Let's just ban Walkinshaw performance based on 'what you've heard'. Maybe the other Holden teams will be a lot quicker if we ban 2 teams?

Your post must be the most stupid I've read so far this year.

Maybe if you actually read what i said, then your reply would not have been the stupidest overreaction so far this year.
I merely hinted that technical partnerships can help out lesser teams.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by vicecityrocker

Maybe if you actually read what i said, then your reply would not have been the stupidest overreaction so far this year.
I merely hinted that technical partnerships can help out lesser teams.

Well maybe you'd like to explain your stupid comment about "other Holden teams being suspicious about TWR cars". Or did you not write that stupid comment that compelled me to overreact to your stupid post?

Seriously, some of you parity mongers need to get a life! Geoff Polites' idea of parity was that 50% of wins must go to Ford. That was at a time when the Ford runners were underperforming - how many times did Ford have races in their grasp... only to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory? How many times did Ford runners take each other out? GP did not take these issues into account. He just wanted more exposure for Ford.

Roll on to season 2007. Ford have more teams consistently in the top ten yet only two contenders are Holdens that just so happen to be getting the results over the Fords. If the Holden teams were taking each other out like the Fords were when GP was threatening to pull Ford out of V8SC, we would have zero Holden teams in the top ten. How would that scenario go down considering GP's parity comment?

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by Wrighty05

From what i saw at Bahrain there was a power advantage. But not to Holden.

Straight line speed advantage or power advantage? Think about it.

How could we have gone from the significant straight line speed advantage that the TWR cars had last year to them struggling so badly on the big tracks this year? Have FPR and the Stone boys found an extra 50HP? Of course not. Its not about engine performance, its about drag. The VEs look like sheds from the front...... and those big flappy guards don't help much either. Ever wondered why Dumbo the elephant couldn't fly very well? A Holden V8Supercar engineer could tell you.........

Tander even mentioned in the Bathurst program that they might struggle at the end of Con-Rod because of the drag caused by the VE's styling...... and he was right! Then again on the weekend, the difference in speed between the VEs and the BFs at the end of the front straight was incredible.

Who knows whether the party gurus will give them a little helping hand with this issue or not though. The whole concept of project blueprint is achieving technical parity............ and the notion of then applying performance parity adjustments on top of this is a bit of a giggle...... because any technical change made will quash the whole blueprint idea..........

[stmorri]

The power from the FPR engines was evident to me at Sandown. DJR I think have similar power but SBR engines I think are slightly behind.

[Luke Plaizier]

I don't know, the 888 cars don't seem to be down on power.


Lukeyson

[SSbaby]

People often confuse straight line speed with engine power. If people watch the video of the 3rd race, Frosty was no quicker than the SBR or DJR Fords in a straight line after FPR used up their good tyres.

I'm not saying that FPR don't have a power edge, they probably do but I doubt it is as extreme as seen in race 2 when he walked past the two HSV cars on the straight. I just think Frosty had better tyres than both the HSVs.

[Micklegend]

Have a look at the drivers too, I think Ford has a bit more talent at present than Holden. Figure in Frosty, Courtney, Whincup and Davison as opposed to Holdsworth, Canto, Perkins, Price as the newer kids on the block and tell me this is not a factor!

The gear these blokes are in and how they can set up the cars makes a lot of difference. I think the talent spread beyond the HRT/HSV is where Holden is lacking in support, hence the results for most of the year.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Micklegend

Have a look at the drivers too, I think Ford has a bit more talent at present than Holden. Figure in Frosty, Courtney, Whincup and Davison as opposed to Holdsworth, Canto, Perkins, Price as the newer kids on the block and tell me this is not a factor!

The gear these blokes are in and how they can set up the cars makes a lot of difference. I think the talent spread beyond the HRT/HSV is where Holden is lacking in support, hence the results for most of the year.

I agree. There's more talent over at the blue oval atm.

When you look at the leading Holden teams, you have to ask why HRT aren't sharing wins with HSVDT. Same equipment, same resources yet vastly different results. The drivers are obviously different, as is their individual form.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

Straight line speed advantage or power advantage? Think about it.

How could we have gone from the significant straight line speed advantage that the TWR cars had last year to them struggling so badly on the big tracks this year? Have FPR and the Stone boys found an extra 50HP? Of course not. Its not about engine performance, its about drag. The VEs look like sheds from the front...... and those big flappy guards don't help much either. Ever wondered why Dumbo the elephant couldn't fly very well? A Holden V8Supercar engineer could tell you.........

[stmorri]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

Straight line speed advantage or power advantage? Think about it.

How could we have gone from the significant straight line speed advantage that the TWR cars had last year to them struggling so badly on the big tracks this year? Have FPR and the Stone boys found an extra 50HP? Of course not. Its not about engine performance, its about drag. The VEs look like sheds from the front...... and those big flappy guards don't help much either. Ever wondered why Dumbo the elephant couldn't fly very well? A Holden V8Supercar engineer could tell you.........

Tander even mentioned in the Bathurst program that they might struggle at the end of Con-Rod because of the drag caused by the VE's styling...... and he was right! Then again on the weekend, the difference in speed between the VEs and the BFs at the end of the front straight was incredible.

Who knows whether the party gurus will give them a little helping hand with this issue or not though. The whole concept of project blueprint is achieving technical parity............ and the notion of then applying performance parity adjustments on top of this is a bit of a giggle...... because any technical change made will quash the whole blueprint idea..........

That's interesting, I haven't heard any previous negative comments about the VE's aero. They certainly look sleek enough to me and I thought they may even have a lower centre of gravity than previous models.

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by stmorri

... I thought they may even have a lower centre of gravity than previous models.

How can that be? - are they not still based on "blueprint" specifications and all the datum points are based on the "VY-VZ"!

As I understand it, the "chopping" of the VE rear doors to fit the template and aero changes are all that happened. The reference points like all the hanging points, bell housing location (breadth, depth and height), anchor points for suspension control arms, etc are unchanged.

Mike

[stmorri]

Originally Posted by mmciau

How can that be? - are they not still based on "blueprint" specifications and all the datum points are based on the "VY-VZ"!

As I understand it, the "chopping" of the VE rear doors to fit the template and aero changes are all that happened. The reference points like all the hanging points, bell housing location (breadth, depth and height), anchor points for suspension control arms, etc are unchanged.

Mike

Blueprint only goes so far, the body shape of both brands is still different and one brand must have a slight advantage over the other as far as aero is concerned. Or maybe one brand is suited to some tracks while the other is suited to other tracks.

[mmciau]

Originally Posted by stmorri

Blueprint only goes so far, the body shape of both brands is still different and one brand must have a slight advantage over the other as far as aero is concerned. Or maybe one brand is suited to some tracks while the other is suited to other tracks.

Yes, I believe the VE has a greater frontal cross section and this surely must impede the time needed to get to Vmax (7500rpm by given differential ratio).



Mike

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by stmorri

That's interesting, I haven't heard any previous negative comments about the VE's aero. They certainly look sleek enough to me and I thought they may even have a lower centre of gravity than previous models.

I don't really see how you can describe the VE as "sleek", the frontal area would have to be the biggest ever for a Commodore.

I have found the comment from Tander that he made in the Bathurst programme;
“The VE is slower on the straights than the VZ was because of the way the front guards are". He then goes on to hint that the Ford's have a horsepower advantage, which is purely politicking, because he clearly knows why the VE is struggling at the end of the straights.

Don't get me wrong stmorri, there is certainly nothing wrong with the downforce created by the VE aero package (look at how many races they've won!), but I don't think it is a coincidence that Ford have won at Sandown, Bathurst and Bahrain..... where the drag really becomes a problem (drag co-efficient directly proportional to velocity squared remember!).

Your comment about improved centre of gravity for the VE I believe to be true, but I don't think it is because of any major component relocations (like bell-housing) from VZ-VE, but rather due to the completely different way the new cars are constructed. As we know, the floor plan is much closer to the purpose built control chassis floated in 05 than what a VE road car actually is, and when you are designing stuff for the purpose of going racing, rather than modifying what is inherent from the factory.......you are going to do a better job....

So, whilst all the chopping around does allow the body to sit lower on the chassis than standard, I really don't think the COG improvements are doing enough to negate the drag problem created by the front styling.........

It should be noted that I am doing all of my engineering from in front of my TV though.....

[stmorri]

Originally Posted by 00 XR8

I don't really see how you can describe the VE as "sleek", the frontal area would have to be the biggest ever for a Commodore.

I have found the comment from Tander that he made in the Bathurst programme;
“The VE is slower on the straights than the VZ was because of the way the front guards are". He then goes on to hint that the Ford's have a horsepower advantage, which is purely politicking, because he clearly knows why the VE is struggling at the end of the straights.

Don't get me wrong stmorri, there is certainly nothing wrong with the downforce created by the VE aero package (look at how many races they've won!), but I don't think it is a coincidence that Ford have won at Sandown, Bathurst and Bahrain..... where the drag really becomes a problem (drag co-efficient directly proportional to velocity squared remember!).

Your comment about improved centre of gravity for the VE I believe to be true, but I don't think it is because of any major component relocations (like bell-housing) from VZ-VE, but rather due to the completely different way the new cars are constructed. As we know, the floor plan is much closer to the purpose built control chassis floated in 05 than what a VE road car actually is, and when you are designing stuff for the purpose of going racing, rather than modifying what is inherent from the factory.......you are going to do a better job....

So, whilst all the chopping around does allow the body to sit lower on the chassis than standard, I really don't think the COG improvements are doing enough to negate the drag problem created by the front styling.........

It should be noted that I am doing all of my engineering from in front of my TV though.....

OK XR8, thanks for the enlightenment. It seems holden may have made a huge blunder with the VE aero.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by stmorri

OK XR8, thanks for the enlightenment. It seems holden may have made a huge blunder with the VE aero.

NEWSFLASH: Holden have made a huge engineering blunder re VE Racer's aero package. This was confirmed by avid ten-tenths, and one-eyed Ford motor-racing enthusiasts, stmorri and 00 XR8, from the the confines of their armchairs...

Maybe you guys should have also been consulted when the German DTM racer designs were first conceived... and i didn't know that elephants couldn't fly purely on the design of their ears, 00 XR8!!!

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

NEWSFLASH: Holden have made a huge engineering blunder re VE Racer's aero package. This was confirmed by avid ten-tenths, and one-eyed Ford motor-racing enthusiasts, stmorri and 00 XR8, from the the confines of their armchairs...

Maybe you guys should have also been consulted when the German DTM racer designs were first conceived... and i didn't know that elephants couldn't fly purely on the design of their ears, 00 XR8!!!

I have been told by a current engineer that the car is slower in a straight line than the VZ.

[stmorri]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

NEWSFLASH: Holden have made a huge engineering blunder re VE Racer's aero package. This was confirmed by avid ten-tenths, and one-eyed Ford motor-racing enthusiasts, stmorri and 00 XR8, from the the confines of their armchairs...

Maybe you guys should have also been consulted when the German DTM racer designs were first conceived... and i didn't know that elephants couldn't fly purely on the design of their ears, 00 XR8!!!

You really need to find a new interest.

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

NEWSFLASH: Holden have made a huge engineering blunder re VE Racer's aero package. This was confirmed by avid ten-tenths, and one-eyed Ford motor-racing enthusiasts, stmorri and 00 XR8, from the the confines of their armchairs...

Maybe you guys should have also been consulted when the German DTM racer designs were first conceived... and i didn't know that elephants couldn't fly purely on the design of their ears, 00 XR8!!!

What exactly is your point here? This is a discussion forum. I stated my opinion, and used evidence to support it (including pretty clear comments from a VE driver). I certainly don't classify it as an engineering blunder, but it is certainly an interesting by-product of the design of the vehicle......

Rather than sarcastic retorts, maybe you could offer your opinion.

I have just looked at this week’s eNews, where Mr Lambden says blatantly that "the VE Commodore is actually slower in a straight line than its predecessor, the VZ".

Do you disagree with this? Or do you disagree with me on why it might be the case? Please, discuss.

If people (or voices?) are telling you that the VE is actually faster in a straight line than the VZ........ they may be getting their information from the wrong end of the horse.