[ELMS] Should privateer LMP1s be reallowed in the Euro Series?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

I voted yes. The advantages are obvious: a better top class for ELMS, increased LMP1 market, an opportunity for privateer LMP1 teams to compete for overall wins on a lower budget than for running in WEC and more LMP1 cars at Le Mans. However, they need to make sure there are at least 4-5 teams commited for the season. Otherwise we could end up with a two-car top class like the ALMS in its final years.

My thought exactly! I really really hope this is where ACO is heading with the LMP2-spec'ifying. Get ESM, SMP, Strakka and one or two more to run ELMS LMP1 instead and we might actually get the privateer/customer market rolling in LMP1 again, similar to what we have seen in LMP2 last 3 or so years.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

As with the others, I don't see how this has any chance of working. Sure, teams want to be racers, but P1 costs even within the WEC are several times that of P2 cars. OK, the ELMS is far cheaper as a series, but that was also the case with the ALMS (and the ALMS's exposure was far higher), but the ALMS struggled to get more than two or three P1s. The cost of it is simply far too high. Sure, the ELMS is lower cost and you would almost certainly get that Le Mans invite, but who is gonna be able to swing upping the cost by at least 2-3 times to get the same trophy?

Privateer P1 is dead, guys. It isn't coming back, ever. And the ACO's idiotic decision to destroy the P2 category to allow Oreca and Onroak to get paid will one day IMO put paid to the whole idea of Le Mans prototypes in favor of increasingly big-bore GT cars. And IMO, if the future is what the rules say it should be, that day can't come soon enough.

When GT1 died off from the States in 2009 and literally no one owned those expensive cars there anymore, there were still plenty of them running in FIA GT, French GT and some in LMS. Similarly to that, the majority of LMP1 privateers have always been operating from Europe, not America.

Of course privateer P1 isn't coming back with the attitude of it already being dead, and if you do nothing to help it resurrect itself.

And once again, what harm would there now be if the class was reintroduced for ELMS 2016? How many people even watch the series, seven, 200? This is not ALMS we're talking about where having (initially) small lead class might harm the imago of the series, it's a niche club for customers.

[S griffin]

In answer to the question yes I think it's a good idea

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Chiana

This is not ALMS we're talking about where having (initially) small lead class might harm the imago of the series, it's a niche club for customers.

interesting point. For quite a while now ELMS has been run mostly to give teams and drivers a place to race---ELMS sure hasn't been trying to build a fan base.

This makes it more likely (well, more possible?) that teams already running ELMS would be willing to pay a little more to run much more exciting cars.

Also, P1 costs don't need to be astronomically high. I understand they will be higher, because of the need for more engineering support but a P1-L is essentially (nowadays) the same chassis as a P2, just with a full-on race engine instead of a stock-block, and maybe a little more freedom to develop the car.

When the privateer P1s left ALMS, it wasn't all because there was something wrong with the class---it was (IMO) a combination of the series not offering RoI (bad TV package = no sponsor RoI, no sponsors + small purses = no team RoI) and the economic collapse.

When money got tight nobody wanted to race expensive cars. Also, frequently changing FIA-ACO rules meant cars had to change fundamentally and frequently. When allowed to run old Lolas almost forever, teams like Intersport, AutoCon, and Dyson did just that--in ALMS.

ELMS would need a grandfather- and great-grandfather clause, to allow people to roll out older chassis (though the aero would need to be updated, probably.) Multimatic, Oak, and Oreca could make a fortune offering update kits for their 2011-era P1s.

Rules could even allow old P2 chassis with new motors, if ELMS wanted a real balancing headache.

Since no one would be racing anything factory more recent then say, the Kolles R15, there wouldn't be any hyper-complex, need-22-technicians-to start-the-engine cars. There would be Oaks, Orecas, Lolas ... I am sure the latest P1 coupes are more aero-efficient, but there is no reason why they would need to be astronomically more expensive to operate than the old cars, or than P2.

[Deleted]

It's not only the unlimited engine and chassis option that makes P1 Non-Hybrid more versatile and delicious, but also the fact that there is no development freeze + cost cap + proam + other limitations (except the new 2015 FIA restrictions but they are relatively minor). Still, I don't believe the expenses would be astronomically higher than P2, they are not futuristic robot spaceships like the hybrid factory cars by no means. And the ELMS program cuts costs regardless.

As for "old P1s" being allowed - no ACO is too stubborn for that to ever happen. Also, the same people that would be running those hypothetical 'old P1s' would surely want to bring them to Le Mans, which is a no no.

[truebeliever]

Doing some quick calculations about this subject, I believe that any team wanting to run in an ELMS privateer P1, could I am sure, go to both Oak & Oreca, who would probably be happy to build their current P2 cars into P1s, are they that different already? I do not actually know, but I am sure someone on here will tell me

Further I cannot see the staffing levels being anymore than what some of the top P2 teams have already and yes I am sure there would be some extra running costs, but I do not believe it could ever be twice or more times than P2?

Logic would say by doing this, the ACO add more prestige to the ELMS, which has none. Add more possible P1 teams for the future of WEC, without them having to commit big resources to try it out, so they can help the numbers when 1 of the manufacturers decide they don't want to play in this game anymore, and clearly that will happen!

The only negative side to this idea, is that it is not an ACO initiative! Decided upon after many hours of wonderful luncheons in expensive restaurants So on that alone, it will never happen, sadly.

[Maelochs]

Oak is already building a P1L for 2016 and has built the Rebellion R1s; Oreca could surely do the same, as the current P2 (as far as I can recall) is based on p1 dimensions and safety regs.

Dome would build a car for anyone who wants to pay; I am pretty sure the Straka-Dome could be re-engineered as a P1 with minimal adjustments (well, what I might call minimal, since I am not paying.)

The Lotus/Praga/ByKolles CLM could also find some customers, potentially.


One big expense all of these cars would bring would be testing a development work. That's the one big edge the factories have--they correct the flaws and maximize the strengths in endless hours of simulations and track laps, while the privateers basically learn what doesn't work during practice and race sessions.


Teams wanting to actually finish races would need to rent some track time or some simulator time---possibly they could all get together for it and share the cost

[Deleted]

^ Actually R-One is made by Oreca, not Onroak

Oak's LMP1 is one of those "we would love to but we'll wait"

Dome and HPD both would build immediately if someone asked them to

[TF110]

I voted no only because I would rather they let p2's headline elms and have p1 privateers in other main continental series like Tusc instead of something in Europe (wec seems more european centered atm). AsLMS is kinda hopeless and unique as they should try to appease Super GT teams imo.

[Damian Baldi]

But what you think about the engines? I think the engines are the key to put back some P2 team into P1.

I still think that the engines must be based on standard blocks as P2 is currently, but with more power. Prototype engines like Judd v10, AER and others should be more expensive.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Chiana

When GT1 died off from the States in 2009 and literally no one owned those expensive cars there anymore, there were still plenty of them running in FIA GT, French GT and some in LMS. Similarly to that, the majority of LMP1 privateers have always been operating from Europe, not America.

Fair enough, but it still doesn't deal with the massive costs problem. You can't use really old chassis because the ACO wouldn't allow them at Le Mans, which wrecks the idea. Even if the factories would make P1 cars for customers, what would they cost? If they would be any less than $2 million each I'd be very surprised. So, you end up with a huge cost increase for a car that has no chance of a trophy beyond winning the ELMS, or the current car which costs a third of that where you can legitimately win your class. Win a class in a P2 car or spend several times as much and be a P1 backmarker. It's not really a hard choice for anyone save Rebellion.

Originally Posted by Chiana

Of course privateer P1 isn't coming back with the attitude of it already being dead, and if you do nothing to help it resurrect itself.

What CAN be done to resurrect itself at this point? With four factories and the rules tailored to them, a privateer hasn't got a hope of being anywhere close to competitive. Costs have gone nuts in that category. The cars have few markets, as they would only be legal for the nobody-cares ELMS and the outrageously-expensive WEC. Nobody is gonna waste their money for that trophy, because it doesn't matter at the stage where it matters. The ACO doesn't want competitive privateers, they want field fillers who don't care how badly they are getting hosed by them, sideshows willing to spend millions for the 'honor' of being at Le Mans. It's the highest form of arrogance. Privateer racers, having long figured out that P1 is far, far too expensive for them, went to P2 cars. And rather than adapt that class to the privateer world with trophies for gentlemen drivers and rigorous enforcement of BoP, cost and chassis availability rules, the ACO decided instead to make it a benefit class for Oreca, Onroak and the chosen engine builder.

And what will be the result of that? For a bunch of people, I think it'll be a migration to GT cars. The SRO and privateer GT series are well aware that privateer racers mean everything to them, hence they do their level best to support them. The Super GT/DTM Class One chassis idea is capable of being a big-bore silhouette GT formula with speeds faster than LMP2s. GTE is struggling a tad in the WEC, but is roaring in IMSA thanks to persistence by BMW and Corvette and the impeding arrival of the Ford GT40. Once the factory efforts in LMP1 collapse, and that's not if but when, the whole idea of Le Mans Prototypes will soon fall by the wayside in favor of the GT cars, not because it was meant to be but because the FIA (which really doesn't give a hoot about sports car racing beyond keeping it from challenging Formula One) and the ACO (who has next to no consideration for the sport outside of what benefits their race) will have made it that way by making it impossible for privateers who want to really race to do so. I fully expect the Strakkas and SMPs of the world to start racing GT cars in the not too distant future, and it will be the same stateside once these idiotic chassis rules all but destroy IMSA's prototype categories. Why would they stay racing for people who have no interest in them when they don't have to?

[Maelochs]

P2 in ELMS is going to stay P2. it is not changing except as FIA wants it to change. They have already said they intend the new car to be faster.

TUSC is in a different situation, where P2 will essential be its P1 class, its top class, in the top continental series. TUSC will likely go with stock-based engines just to keep the manufacturers involved for less cost.

If either series wanted to add P1L they'd have to consider full-race engines because there might be a limit to how much power a stock-block engine could produce, and at how much weight, or with how much expensive modification to keep it reliable.

I am not sure how much a NASCAR engine costs, but they put out in the neighborhood of 900 bhp from 366 cubic inches. On the other hand as far as I know, every single part is made especially for the engine, even though they have manufacturer part numbers, are (however loosely) based on stock parts, and are nominally available to anyone who wanted to buy them. That all adds up to big bucks to get a reliable, long-running "stock based" motor.

Since rebuilding engines is expensive and replacing them many times more so, the series would want engines which last a lot of miles between rebuilds and tend not to grenade. They are also going to want the P1Ls to have more power than the P2s, which are probably pushing 600 bhp? with the new motor? (I hear that's what a Chevy TUSC V8 makes.)

Some teams might prefer to use something like the AER tubo which rebellion and MyKolles has chosen. This is also a place where a builder like Judd might be able to remake a motor into something extremely powerful and durable, too modified to be considered "stock-block" but still cheaper than say, and Audi diesel/ERS system.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

TUSC is in a different situation, where P2 will essential be its P1 class, its top class, in the top continental series. TUSC will likely go with stock-based engines just to keep the manufacturers involved for less cost.

If they have any sense at all they'll tell the ACO where to get off and go their own way, and stick the ACO with the problem of ensuring the future viability of the P1-L and P2 categories.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

If they have any sense at all they'll tell the ACO where to get off and go their own way, and stick the ACO with the problem of ensuring the future viability of the P1-L and P2 categories.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Not. Sure. If. Serious.

[Maelochs]

It's still April Fool's day ... so to fool everybody I am Not being foolish.

I heartily agree that TUSC is sucking a poisoned teat at FIA; I might even have said it somewhere here. Remember the GTP! should be the IMSA rallying cry.

TUSC needs a Top top class, not Europe's second-rate version of it's won second class. If FIA won't let IMSA race anything but cheap kit cars, IMSA needs to remind FIA that it did really really well without FIA during the '70s, 80's, and 90's.

In fact, IMSA basically bailed out Le Mans as I recall, when WSC crashed and IMSA brought over some serious prototypes.

If FIA can't see or doesn't care that the new P2 regs could choke TUSC like ILMC and WEC helped choke ALMS ... then IMSA needs to take care of itself and its fans and figure out its own route.

After all, IMSA already has four chassis makers in Coyote, Dallara, Multimatic, and Riley. Chervy, Ford, Judd, and HPd can supply engines. Continental can supply what they call "racing tires" and we have some of the best tracks in the world.

FIA can supply comedy relief and a standard for comparison ... as in, "Glad we told FIA to sod off. Look at their lame P2s."

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

It's still April Fool's day ... so to fool everybody I am Not being foolish.

I heartily agree that TUSC is sucking a poisoned teat at FIA; I might even have said it somewhere here. Remember the GTP! should be the IMSA rallying cry.

TUSC needs a Top top class, not Europe's second-rate version of it's won second class. If FIA won't let IMSA race anything but cheap kit cars, IMSA needs to remind FIA that it did really really well without FIA during the '70s, 80's, and 90's.

In fact, IMSA basically bailed out Le Mans as I recall, when WSC crashed and IMSA brought over some serious prototypes.

If FIA can't see or doesn't care that the new P2 regs could choke TUSC like ILMC and WEC helped choke ALMS ... then IMSA needs to take care of itself and its fans and figure out its own route.

I agree on all of this, but it runs into one HUGE problem - Grand Am tried that. It ran head on into the purists who hated the things from the start, and the hate didn't late up for the over a decade that the DPs ran, though several generations. As they got faster and better looking, the vitirol towards them never went away, and the first three months post-merger of IMSA was dominated in the fans' conversation about how crap the DPs were, even though the initial idea of slowing the P2s down had been tossed when it was discovered just how fast the souped-up DPs could go. At least one team dumped DPs because their backers didn't like them, and no prototype category this IMSA can create is not going to almost immediately run into the same problems the DPs did.

On top of that, whatever IMSA prototype they create has to go P1 fast or close to it, because otherwise any fan who finds out about IMSA will probably quickly also discover the WEC, and that's not gonna end well because the question will immediately arise "how come they have those things, and we don't?" Saying "it's too expensive" isn't gonna help the fanbase problem, because IMSA is supposed to look like a big time series. Saying "we can't have it because its too expensive" ruins that big-time idea straight away, which makes marketing the series to grow its fanbase extremely difficult if not impossible. It simply can't work, there isn't enough money for a top-level series and not having a top-level series will make growing it and getting the money for it nearly impossible. A Catch-22, pretty much.

I think IMSA's best way of going forth is to close the book on prototype racing and develop a top-dog GT class. Three classes, with this top-dog class on top, Le Mans GTE in the middle and Blancpain/World Challenge GT3 at the bottom. The big-bore GT class starts with the Class One cars developed by Super GT and DTM and fits them with IMSA-spec engines, big-displacement or big-boost units making a reliable 650-700 horsepower. The rulebook includes trophies for the best gentleman drivers in each class, but allows all-pro lineups on any car in the series, and doesn't do the dumb driver classification system - it's either pro or gentleman, two gentleman championship wins makes you ineligible to hold that status again. Spec tires in the bottom class, open in the other two but with restrictions, namely on anyone in the series being able to use any compound by any maker at any time, period, no withholding supply from anyone for any reason. BoP adjustments limited to twice a season as well as the off-season, but all teams in all classes are subject to the use of penalty weight for success. Development allowed, but limited in the cost and number of times it can be used. All big-ticket items - cars, engines, gearboxes, ECUs, bodywork kits, tires - have a series-mandated price tag that would be worked out between the series and prospective manufacturers before the rules go into effect.

IMSA GTE in this series would start off as it is now, but the following season after the rules go into effect there will be a rule that says you cannot use the same car in both GTE and GTS, which means the Ferrari 458 Italia, Aston Martin Vantage, Chevrolet Corvette, Dodge Viper and Porsche 911 GT3 would only be eligible for one class in the series....but IMSA will give a break to a new car entered in one of the categories for development purposes. Ferrari want to run the 458 in GTS, fine, but you gotta do something else for GTE then, but the GTE rules would allow hybrid systems, 7.0-liter naturally aspirated engines and other such improvements, so if they wanted to use the F12 Berlinetta (or the LaFerrari....), they could do so, no problem. Likewise, if Chrysler wanted to take the Vipers to Le Mans, they can't use the GT3-spec car in GTS....but if they wanted to make an Alfa Romeo 4C GT3, they could and IMSA would allow them greater flexibility in its development to make it easier for the car to get up to speed quickly. Since BoP rules are in place and ballast weight exists to keep one team or car from dominating the field, the rule book would be smaller in terms of technical requirements than now. No spec chassis, no spec components. Oddballs which don't exclusively fit the rules would be more than welcome in either GTE or GTS subject to series approval.

Build the king of all GT series, and see if that does a better job. I'd bet just about anything it would.

[Deleted]

How on Earth did this turn into IMSA discussion again?

Brent you asked what could be done to resurrect itself at this point when the teams don't want to waste time in place 10 or whatever behind all the factory cars at every race. Well, just what I suggested, ELMS instead of WEC-only. Yeah you are right that nobody but some nerds outside the paddock really care of ELMS, this is true. But this also applies for every single sportscar series in Europe apart from those WEC events, N24, and maybe some national GT event here and there. You think people care what happens in SRO racing nowadays? Or International GT Open? Or or or?

Can you think of any actual downside in at least attempting to allow LMP1 privateer back to ELMS? If no-one cares, then surely there is no harm either?

PS - if this all turns into BoP-GT circus at some point as you sugget, which I really don't believe it will, I'm turning off.

[Maelochs]

BrentJackson: GTP Proves that an IMSA class can be awesome. People hated DPs because DPs flat sucked. They were slow and ugly and crude and primitive and an obvious step Back, which is not what sports car fans want.

Ont he other hand everybody loved and still loves GTP. So really your argument doesn't hold water.

ELMS could allow P1L and as Chianna says, no one would even notice.Half the posters here probably don't know ELMS exists without an occasional reminder. ELMS could try it for a year and if it didn't work out, or if it did, no real difference.

All the stuff about all the other stuff ... is for a different thread.

[Damian Baldi]

So, if ELMS is nothing but a cheap series, the P1 should be able to race in US and WEC, but it is not necessary to do both series at same time. The american teams could do they series with the current P1 chassis and the current DP engines. Other way those teams will end creating a new series again and the problem will be bigger.

Some day P1-H will implode when Toyota win Le Mans and retire, or Audi focus on other series. P1 privateer will be the unique P1 again.

[Bob Baldwin]

I suppose the bottom line is what each team perceives as having Value to the team and Sponsor .
I don't want to know what teams cost to operate .with-in the ELMS structure at this level . Also some one mentioned that WEC vs ELMS Costs for the same class were 2-3 times higher . Plus Fee's I assume that is due to Logistics issues . Can someone explain the Fee's structure ?
Here in the USA , I think we have 2 teams that run the whole WEC series . Am I envious NO ! though they are presently in the P-2 class . I say if you have the dollars and you see Value in it go for it .
Possibly as regulations change these teams could end up in the P-1 class .
Read an interview with Team Dyson now in the PWC . Basicly it stated that it was the best Value " Bang For The Buck " available today to the team . Would I like to see them back in TUDOR " Yes !" might they be seen next year in GT3 Though there still may be some personal issues to work out .
As a fan of Sportscar Racing for 40+ years one thing remains the same " The Sport is Always Evolving

[Deleted]

For the few that actually DO follow this series, and whom do not accept the call of P1 - if such combo exist - does this package appeal to you so much that nothing else is needed?

	Pro-Am Restr.	Spec engine	Spec tires	Limited chassis		BoP
P2	X		X		-		 X			(X)
P3	X		X		X		(X)			(X)
GTE	X		-		X		 -			 X
GT3	X		-		X		 -			 X

[Gulf]

Yes. If this would happen I would probably be more a fan of the ELMS than the WEC. Two reasons why 1. More interesting tracks. 2. No FIA involvement.

[Bob Baldwin]

That looks pretty Good to me

Agree with Gulf on the more interesting tracks

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Gulf

Yes. If this would happen I would probably be more a fan of the ELMS than the WEC. Two reasons why 1. More interesting tracks. 2. No FIA involvement.

Agreed on all accounts