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20 Oct 2024, 20:38 (Ref:4231744) | #26 | |
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Counter point: Max pushed another car off the road (again), and was off the road himself. Drivers have been penalized for this exact move in this exact race.
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20 Oct 2024, 20:41 (Ref:4231745) | #27 | ||
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Norris gets a 5 sec. penalty.
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20 Oct 2024, 20:42 (Ref:4231746) | #28 | ||
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Congrats to Leclerc on the win and congrats to Ferrari on the 1, 2.
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20 Oct 2024, 20:44 (Ref:4231747) | #29 | |
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Max has unlocked the secret. Defend the inside so the only option for passing car is the outside. If someone makes an attempt, just run them off the circuit. Passing car either have to abort or take a penalty. Plus.. anything goes on lap one, turn one.
Richard |
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20 Oct 2024, 20:45 (Ref:4231748) | #30 | |
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Are you talking about T1 here? Everyone knows T1 is generally a bit more leniant. And both drivers lost positions. T1 was nowhere near as bad as say Lewis on Nico in 2015.
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20 Oct 2024, 20:45 (Ref:4231749) | #31 | |
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To use Max's words: These stewards are F****** idiots
Should have given Norris a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage AND Max a 5 second penalty for pushing a car off the track. |
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20 Oct 2024, 20:49 (Ref:4231750) | #32 | ||
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Max had all 4 wheels over the blue line when putting Lando off the road late in the race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krTMVSnydI Identical move to Brazil 2021 - Max has worked out you can commit to running yourself off the road (to take extra speed) and force the other car out there, and that's going to be legal. You can make an illegal move yourself, but then nobody is allowed to profit from it. This same race had drivers penalized for this exact move. George Russell was penalized for a much less harsh move than Max committed here. |
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20 Oct 2024, 20:56 (Ref:4231752) | #33 | ||
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My view is that Norris should have been much cleverer about it, conceded the position and then had another go as he had a much faster car. He waited in the hope that he wouldn't get a penalty. No real comparison to Brazil 21. Norris is going much further off track there than he needs to so he can get a good slingshot down the mini straight. Justified pen, but not if Norris decides to let Max back through. |
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20 Oct 2024, 20:58 (Ref:4231754) | #34 | ||
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George and Yuki were penalised for driving the same as max today. Why was max not penalised. |
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20 Oct 2024, 20:59 (Ref:4231755) | #35 | |
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20 Oct 2024, 21:01 (Ref:4231756) | #36 | |
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20 Oct 2024, 21:08 (Ref:4231757) | #37 | ||
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There is no comparison to Brazil 21 It's much closer to Abu Dhabi 21, lap 1 - where the argument was that Hamilton gave the advantage back. Calling Norris a "victim" when he could have simply given the position back and attacked a few corners later is frankly ridiculous. Ultimately, I don't think Norris was making the corner anyway. I actually don't think George deserved a penalty. The issue here is the inconsistency. Last edited by Beau2; 20 Oct 2024 at 21:27. |
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20 Oct 2024, 21:08 (Ref:4231759) | #38 | ||
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Both Norris and Verstappen should have been penalised.
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20 Oct 2024, 21:22 (Ref:4231762) | #39 | ||
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Lando was not penalised for excessive track limits. He was no on a final warning at that point and it had no bearing on the move or penalty. Why should the victim have to give the position back to an illegal move made by the car in front? Glad we’ve established that there is an inconsistency when applied to racing rules of car number 1. That, oddly, is a consistent issue when that car is forced to go wheel to wheel with another car. |
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20 Oct 2024, 21:32 (Ref:4231764) | #40 | ||
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As for the Norris vs. Max move. I don't think Norris was making the corner either way, nor was Max. I actually don't think Norris was "forced off" but rather both cars went in much too hot, that is the key difference with Brazil 21. Norris was then penalised for coming out on top after both cars went off track when both cars could have done more to stay on track. |
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20 Oct 2024, 22:08 (Ref:4231768) | #41 | |
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Norris got it in combination with the Max level Busch League bs moving back and forth blocking late late. He and Max deserved 5 seconds for the corner and Norris 5 for moving
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20 Oct 2024, 22:21 (Ref:4231770) | #42 | ||
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Norris of course made it much harder than necessary by fluffing his lap 1, turn 1 defence!
FWIW I also think he took too many laps trying to pass Max when he had the pace. He faffs about too much it's maddening!. The lad is monster quick but he is way too indecisive and I think this is what is going to prevent him kicking on to true ace status in the next couple of years. Mclaren probably aren't helping matters with some pretty conservative tactics. But what a day for Leclerc and Ferrari. How I.wish they could both do that more often. And Sainz proving yet agaim why there was absolutely no need to drop him for mext year. Great first race back for Lawaon. Genuinely surprised how stellar he was this weekend. Yuki's "How did that happen" radio question after Lawson rejoined in front of him after the tyre stop was priceless! And rather umfortunate in light of the pace difference between them... |
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20 Oct 2024, 22:29 (Ref:4231773) | #43 | |
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That's the beauty of Max's strategy. As you never intend to make the corner you can always mirror the passing car to ensure they never get ahead of you at apex. This strategy should always work (given history of lack of steward punishment) when two cars involved. When three or more involved, it will not work as it opens for others to pass.
I think as it played out, yes. I think Max should have been penalized for the first corner (but stewards will not punish anything like that unless there is contact). Maybe someday as first corner abuse becomes so blatant and pervasive they may reconsider opening their eye to the behavior. I think there should be some type of penalty for the defensive strategy that Max used (Which I outlined in my earlier posts.) Lando should also be penalized for not giving the position back. In the end, I think it ultimately ended up being unfair with one penalized but not both. Richard |
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20 Oct 2024, 22:38 (Ref:4231775) | #44 | ||
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The only thing he could have done is effectively do what he did on his off circuit pass of Max. Don't brake to make the corner. Keep your foot in it and plan to drive off circuit on the exit. But this requires someone on your inside being a good dance partner and for them to drive equally dirty. Richard |
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20 Oct 2024, 22:53 (Ref:4231777) | #45 | |
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Another point to make. As I mentioned, Max's strategy of pushing a passing car off circuit doesn't work when three or more cars involved. First corner of lap one is a perfect example. Max had no intention of making the corner. The only thing that mattered was to not let Lando get ahead. Everyone else was not a risk. So others got through as Max pushed Lando off the circuit. All that mattered was the WDC points situation and keeping Lando behind him at all costs.
Richard |
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20 Oct 2024, 22:59 (Ref:4231778) | #46 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
As I mentioned above, worth watching the after race segment at the sky pad and the pundit discussion. Summary was that decisions made by the stewards were correct, the racing rules as they stand don't help and encourage some driver behaviour, particularly when competing for a corner and that lastly, the circuit design itself encourages some of this crap - if the runoffs at turns 1 & 11 at COTA were gravel, none of this would have happened. |
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20 Oct 2024, 23:37 (Ref:4231783) | #47 | |||
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It was ignored by Masi in Brazil 21, ("Let them race") and now we have Max repeating the procedure whenever he is under duress. It is absolutely rubbish and is fundamentally contrary to racing etiquette. If you run someone off the track you are penalized. Full stop. If you run someone off the track and go off yourself and he regains the track? Him going off the tack was your fault. You get penalized (5sec) and he gains a position. General rule. Stop being stupid. Don't do it again or you'll receive a further penalty (30sec) for doing it a second time in the same race. |
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21 Oct 2024, 01:08 (Ref:4231789) | #48 | |||
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I have some sympathy with this view.....Max has realised that he can game the rules as they stand and simply, whenever challenged, simply roll off the brakes to run wide, ensuring that the challenger has to go off circuit to avoid collision. But he's getting a little careless in that he's running completely off circuit himself......but somehow avoiding penalties.... |
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21 Oct 2024, 03:00 (Ref:4231801) | #49 | |||
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On the question of Brazil 2021, there was a different regime in place at the time, which was introduced by Charlie and maintained by Masi. It was to focus on specific corners from a track limits point of view and there was also strong pressure to "let them race" - we actually saw and heard that from McLaren after today's race. The regulations are tighter now and I do think that Max "games" the regs, but so can any of them, as they all know what the regs are. Personally, the regs could be better but also the circuit designs - if Turn 11 was all gravel after about a metre from the track edge, I don't think we'd have any of the controversial calls from today. |
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21 Oct 2024, 05:15 (Ref:4231805) | #50 | |||
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If you run another driver off the track and go off yourself, then the other driver regains the track before you do the overtake rule should be negated. That is common sense. If we are having a legalistic interpretation of general racing etiquette, then the sport is in a very sad place. I served 10 years in national competition as a race official and I would NEVER have done what these officials did under general rules of racing etiquette. Its a nonsense. |
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