US GP Austin

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Norris should give that position back. That is really no different to the type of move that people lambast Max for doing.

Counter point: Max pushed another car off the road (again), and was off the road himself. Drivers have been penalized for this exact move in this exact race.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Norris gets a 5 sec. penalty.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Congrats to Leclerc on the win and congrats to Ferrari on the 1, 2.

[Richard C]

Max has unlocked the secret. Defend the inside so the only option for passing car is the outside. If someone makes an attempt, just run them off the circuit. Passing car either have to abort or take a penalty. Plus.. anything goes on lap one, turn one.

Richard

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Counter point: Max pushed another car off the road (again), and was off the road himself. Drivers have been penalized for this exact move in this exact race.

Are you talking about T1 here? Everyone knows T1 is generally a bit more leniant. And both drivers lost positions. T1 was nowhere near as bad as say Lewis on Nico in 2015.

[TCT]

To use Max's words: These stewards are F****** idiots

Should have given Norris a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage AND Max a 5 second penalty for pushing a car off the track.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Are you talking about T1 here? Everyone knows T1 is generally a bit more leniant. And both drivers lost positions. T1 was nowhere near as bad as say Lewis on Nico in 2015.

I am not.

Max had all 4 wheels over the blue line when putting Lando off the road late in the race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krTMVSnydI

Identical move to Brazil 2021 - Max has worked out you can commit to running yourself off the road (to take extra speed) and force the other car out there, and that's going to be legal. You can make an illegal move yourself, but then nobody is allowed to profit from it.

This same race had drivers penalized for this exact move. George Russell was penalized for a much less harsh move than Max committed here.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I am not.

Max had all 4 wheels over the blue line when putting Lando off the road late in the race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krTMVSnydI

Identical move to Brazil 2021 - Max has worked out you can commit to running yourself off the road (to take extra speed) and force the other car out there, and that's going to be legal. You can make an illegal move yourself, but then nobody is allowed to profit from it.

This same race had drivers penalized for this exact move. George Russell was penalized for a much less harsh move than Max committed here.

Yes, I have seen the move. Both cars off track. Norris never ahead while on track. Pretty poor racing from both given Norris very late move later at T1.

My view is that Norris should have been much cleverer about it, conceded the position and then had another go as he had a much faster car. He waited in the hope that he wouldn't get a penalty.

No real comparison to Brazil 21. Norris is going much further off track there than he needs to so he can get a good slingshot down the mini straight. Justified pen, but not if Norris decides to let Max back through.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Yes, I have seen the move. Both cars off track. Norris never ahead. Pretty poor racing from both given Norris very late move later at T1.

My view is that Norris should have been much cleverer about it, conceded the position and then had another go as he had a much faster car. He waited in the hope that he wouldn't get a penalty.

No real comparison to Brazil 21.

It’s an identical move from max as Brazil 2021. He overcommitted to the corner and out another car off the road. The only difference this time was that his victim did not come off worse.

George and Yuki were penalised for driving the same as max today. Why was max not penalised.

[TCT]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Why was max not penalised.

Because Max.
There's rules for everyone and then there's rules for Max.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by TCT

To use Max's words: These stewards are F****** idiots

Should have given Norris a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage AND Max a 5 second penalty for pushing a car off the track.

This

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It’s an identical move from max as Brazil 2021. He overcommitted to the corner and out another car off the road. The only difference this time was that his victim did not come off worse.

George and Yuki were penalised for driving the same as max today. Why was max not penalised.

Because like it or not, in the view of the stewards, commentators and the ruleset Max didn't do an awful lot wrong there. It may be inconsistent, but there we go. Both drivers were at fault and Norris was already on a track limits warning.

There is no comparison to Brazil 21 It's much closer to Abu Dhabi 21, lap 1 - where the argument was that Hamilton gave the advantage back. Calling Norris a "victim" when he could have simply given the position back and attacked a few corners later is frankly ridiculous. Ultimately, I don't think Norris was making the corner anyway.

I actually don't think George deserved a penalty. The issue here is the inconsistency.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Both Norris and Verstappen should have been penalised.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Because like it or not, in the view of the stewards, commentators and the ruleset Max didn't do an awful lot wrong there. It may be inconsistent, but there we go. Both drivers were at fault and Norris was already on a track limits warning.

There is no comparison to Brazil 21 It's much closer to Abu Dhabi 21, lap 1 - where the argument was that Hamilton gave the advantage back. Calling Norris a "victim" when he could have simply given the position back and attacked a few corners later is frankly ridiculous.

Good, we’ve established that it is indeed inconsistent- which seems to be a thing when max is involved. Max was not penalised for committing a penalisable offence that others were penalised for in the same race.

Lando was not penalised for excessive track limits. He was no on a final warning at that point and it had no bearing on the move or penalty.

Why should the victim have to give the position back to an illegal move made by the car in front?

Glad we’ve established that there is an inconsistency when applied to racing rules of car number 1. That, oddly, is a consistent issue when that car is forced to go wheel to wheel with another car.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Good, we’ve established that it is indeed inconsistent- which seems to be a thing when max is involved. Max was not penalised for committing a penalisable offence that others were penalised for in the same race.

Lando was not penalised for excessive track limits. He was no on a final warning at that point and it had no bearing on the move or penalty.

Why should the victim have to give the position back to an illegal move made by the car in front?

Glad we’ve established that there is an inconsistency when applied to racing rules of car number 1. That, oddly, is a consistent issue when that car is forced to go wheel to wheel with another car.

Agree, with the inconsistency. Don't appreciate the sarcasm. I don't think George deserved a pen for his move.

As for the Norris vs. Max move. I don't think Norris was making the corner either way, nor was Max. I actually don't think Norris was "forced off" but rather both cars went in much too hot, that is the key difference with Brazil 21.

Norris was then penalised for coming out on top after both cars went off track when both cars could have done more to stay on track.

[broadrun96]

Norris got it in combination with the Max level Busch League bs moving back and forth blocking late late. He and Max deserved 5 seconds for the corner and Norris 5 for moving

[chunterer]

Norris of course made it much harder than necessary by fluffing his lap 1, turn 1 defence!
FWIW I also think he took too many laps trying to pass Max when he had the pace. He faffs about too much it's maddening!.
The lad is monster quick but he is way too indecisive and I think this is what is going to prevent him kicking on to true ace status in the next couple of years.
Mclaren probably aren't helping matters with some pretty conservative tactics.

But what a day for Leclerc and Ferrari. How I.wish they could both do that more often. And Sainz proving yet agaim why there was absolutely no need to drop him for mext year.
Great first race back for Lawaon. Genuinely surprised how stellar he was this weekend.
Yuki's "How did that happen" radio question after Lawson rejoined in front of him after the tyre stop was priceless! And rather umfortunate in light of the pace difference between them...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Beau2

Norris never ahead while on track.

That's the beauty of Max's strategy. As you never intend to make the corner you can always mirror the passing car to ensure they never get ahead of you at apex. This strategy should always work (given history of lack of steward punishment) when two cars involved. When three or more involved, it will not work as it opens for others to pass.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Both Norris and Verstappen should have been penalised.

I think as it played out, yes. I think Max should have been penalized for the first corner (but stewards will not punish anything like that unless there is contact). Maybe someday as first corner abuse becomes so blatant and pervasive they may reconsider opening their eye to the behavior.

I think there should be some type of penalty for the defensive strategy that Max used (Which I outlined in my earlier posts.) Lando should also be penalized for not giving the position back. In the end, I think it ultimately ended up being unfair with one penalized but not both.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Norris of course made it much harder than necessary by fluffing his lap 1, turn 1 defence!

I am not sure what he could have done differently. Firstly, pole at COTA puts you in the wrong place to be successful at turn one. Second, if someone divebombs with no intention of making the corner you are basically put into a collision avoidance mode.

The only thing he could have done is effectively do what he did on his off circuit pass of Max. Don't brake to make the corner. Keep your foot in it and plan to drive off circuit on the exit. But this requires someone on your inside being a good dance partner and for them to drive equally dirty.

Richard

[Richard C]

Another point to make. As I mentioned, Max's strategy of pushing a passing car off circuit doesn't work when three or more cars involved. First corner of lap one is a perfect example. Max had no intention of making the corner. The only thing that mattered was to not let Lando get ahead. Everyone else was not a risk. So others got through as Max pushed Lando off the circuit. All that mattered was the WDC points situation and keeping Lando behind him at all costs.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Max was not penalised for committing a penalisable offence that others were penalised for in the same race.

Why should the victim have to give the position back to an illegal move made by the car in front?

If you have access to the Sky broadcast, it would be worth watching the after race segment with Anthony Davidson at the pad, analysing both this situation and the George Russell situation. What he said makes complete sense & shows why the penalties were handed to each driver - definitely not the same situation. Brazil 21 is irrelevant because the racing rules have changed since then, has no bearing on what happened today whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Beau2

As for the Norris vs. Max move. I don't think Norris was making the corner either way, nor was Max. I actually don't think Norris was "forced off" but rather both cars went in much too hot, that is the key difference with Brazil 21.

Norris was then penalised for coming out on top after both cars went off track when both cars could have done more to stay on track.

Brazil 21 is irrelevant because the racing rules have changed since then, has no bearing on what happened today whatsoever.

As I mentioned above, worth watching the after race segment at the sky pad and the pundit discussion. Summary was that decisions made by the stewards were correct, the racing rules as they stand don't help and encourage some driver behaviour, particularly when competing for a corner and that lastly, the circuit design itself encourages some of this crap - if the runoffs at turns 1 & 11 at COTA were gravel, none of this would have happened.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I am not.

Max had all 4 wheels over the blue line when putting Lando off the road late in the race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_krTMVSnydI

Identical move to Brazil 2021 - Max has worked out you can commit to running yourself off the road (to take extra speed) and force the other car out there, and that's going to be legal. You can make an illegal move yourself, but then nobody is allowed to profit from it.

This same race had drivers penalized for this exact move. George Russell was penalized for a much less harsh move than Max committed here.

You are absolutely correct.
It was ignored by Masi in Brazil 21, ("Let them race") and now we have Max repeating the procedure whenever he is under duress.
It is absolutely rubbish and is fundamentally contrary to racing etiquette.
If you run someone off the track you are penalized.
Full stop.
If you run someone off the track and go off yourself and he regains the track? Him going off the tack was your fault. You get penalized (5sec) and he gains a position.
General rule.
Stop being stupid. Don't do it again or you'll receive a further penalty (30sec) for doing it a second time in the same race.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

You are absolutely correct.
It was ignored by Masi in Brazil 21, ("Let them race") and now we have Max repeating the procedure whenever he is under duress.
It is absolutely rubbish and is fundamentally contrary to racing etiquette.
If you run someone off the track you are penalized.
Full stop.
If you run someone off the track and go off yourself and he regains the track? Him going off the tack was your fault. You get penalized (5sec) and he gains a position.
General rule.
Stop being stupid. Don't do it again or you'll receive a further penalty (30sec) for doing it a second time in the same race.

I have some sympathy with this view.....Max has realised that he can game the rules as they stand and simply, whenever challenged, simply roll off the brakes to run wide, ensuring that the challenger has to go off circuit to avoid collision. But he's getting a little careless in that he's running completely off circuit himself......but somehow avoiding penalties....

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I have some sympathy with this view.....Max has realised that he can game the rules as they stand and simply, whenever challenged, simply roll off the brakes to run wide, ensuring that the challenger has to go off circuit to avoid collision. But he's getting a little careless in that he's running completely off circuit himself......but somehow avoiding penalties....

Bear in mind though that the only breach for running off the track is exceeding track limits, and they have to do that 3 times before a penalty comes into play on the next occasion.

On the question of Brazil 2021, there was a different regime in place at the time, which was introduced by Charlie and maintained by Masi. It was to focus on specific corners from a track limits point of view and there was also strong pressure to "let them race" - we actually saw and heard that from McLaren after today's race.

The regulations are tighter now and I do think that Max "games" the regs, but so can any of them, as they all know what the regs are.

Personally, the regs could be better but also the circuit designs - if Turn 11 was all gravel after about a metre from the track edge, I don't think we'd have any of the controversial calls from today.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Bear in mind though that the only breach for running off the track is exceeding track limits, and they have to do that 3 times before a penalty comes into play on the next occasion.

On the question of Brazil 2021, there was a different regime in place at the time, which was introduced by Charlie and maintained by Masi. It was to focus on specific corners from a track limits point of view and there was also strong pressure to "let them race" - we actually saw and heard that from McLaren after today's race.

The regulations are tighter now and I do think that Max "games" the regs, but so can any of them, as they all know what the regs are.

Personally, the regs could be better but also the circuit designs - if Turn 11 was all gravel after about a metre from the track edge, I don't think we'd have any of the controversial calls from today.

But if they run another driver off in an overtake they get penalized 5 seconds.
If you run another driver off the track and go off yourself, then the other driver regains the track before you do the overtake rule should be negated.
That is common sense.
If we are having a legalistic interpretation of general racing etiquette, then the sport is in a very sad place.
I served 10 years in national competition as a race official and I would NEVER have done what these officials did under general rules of racing etiquette.
Its a nonsense.