Thats what it's all about..for Michael

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by drexel

Peter are you suggesting MS is instigating life or death situations on the track. You cant be serious. Why not take a good look at other drivers who have caused Death and serious injury through their stupidity on the track. MS's shunts on JV and Hill were controlled, low speed, and were done to damage the car. In JV's case, I bet he feels guilty that he wasn't hard enough on the situation. I guess hypocrisy is to be expected by Anti-schu ppl.

If you think that deliberately taking out somebody at (what you may consider to be) low speeds is correct then I think you need to reconsider your perspective. You might also wish to consider what Enzo Ferrari would think or is that just being "traditionalist" as well. However may I ask you to take a look at this thread http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=11103 and then give some thought to what you've written?

For your info. The speeds the two unfortunates in that thread were probably slower than those which your favourite protagonist was doing when he made those reprehensible moves.

[Gt_R]

Not that i am encouraging full fledged bumper cars on F1 circuits..

But by the way, do you have any idea what you are comparing???

I could easily counter your example with one like both JV and Ralf was okay when they rammed into each other. And at Monza...was any drivers seriously hurt in the 2nd corner crash, let alone die?

Try comparing the difference in car safety levels before bringing a low competition formula to justify a high competition formula problem. Do you seriously think that the accident in 97 would have killed Jacques??

And a driver can die without having a second car being involved... Just look at the last few fatal accidents in F1...does that mean we ban F1? All sports carry some risk... As long as the risk is controllable by either one of the parties.

That is why i always like to see advancements in safety...it would contribute greatly to any fatalities which i really hate to see. Still, i think this issue is being over-discussed...and most of the people who are going on and on are mostly Anti Schueys instead of safety angels...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Gt_R
Not that i am encouraging full fledged bumper cars on F1 circuits..

But by the way, do you have any idea what you are comparing???

I could easily counter your example with one like both JV and Ralf was okay when they rammed into each other. And at Monza...was any drivers seriously hurt in the 2nd corner crash, let alone die?

I probably know better than most. But to say that making a dangerous sport even more dangerous is a good thing is immature beyond belief.

Originally posted by Gt_R
Try comparing the difference in car safety levels before bringing a low competition formula to justify a high competition formula problem. Do you seriously think that the accident in 97 would have killed Jacques??

I can and always compare but you miss the point.

Originally posted by Gt_R
And a driver can die without having a second car being involved... Just look at the last few fatal accidents in F1...does that mean we ban F1? All sports carry some risk... As long as the risk is controllable by either one of the parties.

Nope. It means we take cogniscence of the situation and do all we can to avoid these tragedies not encourage them.

Originally posted by Gt_R
That is why i always like to see advancements in safety...it would contribute greatly to any fatalities which i really hate to see. Still, i think this issue is being over-discussed...and most of the people who are going on and on are mostly Anti Schueys instead of safety angels...

Its no good having advancements in safety if you then use those advances to batter your way safely to the world championship.

However I'm not surprised that you would think its being over discussed. Someone is disagreeing with you.

[neutral]

explain how Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemeyer fit into this mould.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by neutral
explain how Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemeyer fit into this mould.

Neutral,

Could you clarify your question please because I'm not sure what you are asking.

[neutral]

Sorry about the mispost. I was intending to reply, but I have an exam tommorow and really should be studying.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett


Neutral,

Could you clarify your question please because I'm not sure what you are asking.

Neutral was merely asking the same question that I had posed to GT_R

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by neutral
Sorry about the mispost. I was intending to reply, but I have an exam tommorow and really should be studying.

That'll be brain surgery then?

Good luck.

[Run Free]

The FACT is:

TGF has finally admitted what images have clearly shown: he DELIBERATELY crashed in Villeneuve in an attempt to take the title.

BTW, someone here talked of "hypocrisy of anti-schu people" forgetting how hypocrit were some of pro-schu people accusing Villeneuve on this circumstance....

The POINT is:

there are two kind of people, here like in both racing and real life:
the ones that believe that you can do anything to reach your goals, even break the rules and deny to have done that (that's hypocrysy, drexel!); the others that believe in that old thing called "moral values" and in the respect of the others and of rules.

Schumacher is a perfect show of the first type of human being in the sport, in which he breaks the rules when this suits his goals. Unfortunately, there are too many people like him all around, and being him a public personality breaking the rules in front of millions people and being rewarded for this certainly doesn't help to reach more civilisation on our planet.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by drexel
In an interview on BBC1 Schumacher was asked if he felt at all guilty about his past indiscretions, he said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Not really guilty, I've been growing up with Senna and remember incidents with Prost and Senna. It's why I don't have the feeling I'm guilty for anything because it was part of the game. I knew it wasn't right, but this is an important moment, everything or nothing, and you go for it.”


Now that's as honest as you'll ever get.

Honest? TGF lied about the incident initially, and only admitted to it several days later that he deliberately drove his car into Villeneuve's Williams.

And as for the seriousness of the accident, I already have posted several times in this forum that the freeze frame in car shots from TGF's Ferrari clearly shows that TGF made two deliberate moves towards the Williams. The first would only have resulted in wheel banging, so he steered his car away and waited until there was an overlap of his front wheel with the rear wheel of the Williams, when he jerked the steering wheel again towards the Williams, which would have launched the Williams into the air. Unfortunately for TGF, his front wheel bounced off the side of the Williams and the rear wheel of the Williams cleared the front wheel of the Ferrari.
There is nothing in this dastardly incident to make anyone proud of TGF, and to suggest that this frame of mind is what makes TGF the best is simply absurd.
And please don't blame me for starting an anti-TGF argument, because this all started with Drexel's silly post.

[Wrex]

Whats it like way up there on the moral high ground?

I'm guessing every single one of you "TGF haters" has never made a mistake and if you did you have always admited to it. Sure.

I will never excuse what Michael did in Adelaide or Jerez. I can't because it was wrong. But how long until some of you get over it?

I was peaved to the max on both occassions and held it against him for a long time, but, GET OVER IT ALREADY!!!

What has he done since that keeps you from denying his great ability and most talented driver out there today? You don't have to like him, but give him credit for what he has achieved.

[Peter Mallett]

Run Free.

You've got it. The point is that he's admitted he was wrong. It doesn't matter what motivated him to do those things, morally and factually he was wrong.

Senna did the same thing about a year after the Prost/Suzuka "accident".

Its why I could never respect Senna or Mickey-the-Shoe. however I've always thought that Mickey is talented and that's what makes these events even worse.

Also as a WDC he's up there as an example. To condone what he did is tantamount to anarchy.

[RussianFriend]

Gt_R,

I consider TGF to be one of the most talented drivers. But "the genius and evil deed are incompatible". (if you don't know what I mean, it's the quote from "Mozart and Saliery" by rusiian genius Pushkin)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by Wrex
What has he done since that keeps you from denying his great ability and most talented driver out there today? You don't have to like him, but give him credit for what he has achieved.

Hmm.

Thinking about it, I've even supported him at times. The "swerves" last year for example. I couldn't see anything wrong other than nobody else did it. When they finally did do it TGF actually got caught out. But dangerous no because nobody was actually aiming a car at another car.

His achievements actually tarnish one's opinion becuase at least one of his championships was won by foul play. that I could never condone.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Run Free
there are two kind of people, here like in both racing and real life:
the ones that believe that you can do anything to reach your goals, even break the rules and deny to have done that (that's hypocrysy, drexel!); the others that believe in that old thing called "moral values" and in the respect of the others and of rules.

This sounds like several company directors of two companies in Australia currently under investigation, including one Rich guy.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Wrex
Whats it like way up there on the moral high ground?

I'm guessing every single one of you "TGF haters" has never made a mistake and if you did you have always admited to it. Sure.

Sorry mate, but I have to respond to this. In 15 years of competitive sailing, I have never cheated to win a race, let alone a championship. If I made a mistake like hitting a mark, I either re-rounded the mark (and in one case lost a championship doing so), or I did the required penalty. In the final analysis, you have to ask yourself what value you would place on a championship if you cheated to win.

[Airhead]

Originally posted by Peter Mallett
Run Free.

You've got it. The point is that he's admitted he was wrong. It doesn't matter what motivated him to do those things, morally and factually he was wrong.

Senna did the same thing about a year after the Prost/Suzuka "accident".

Its why I could never respect Senna or Mickey-the-Shoe. however I've always thought that Mickey is talented and that's what makes these events even worse.

Also as a WDC he's up there as an example. To condone what he did is tantamount to anarchy.

I agree totally with Peter. At 20 plus million a year you can expect better. Just because it worked in Adelaide does not mean it is right. It's a good thing they don't start each GP with "gentlemen start your engines", Schumachers car would be silent.

[enemy-ace]

of Gilles Villeneuve
"Flying, snowmobiling or driving, he was a risk-taker of classic proportions. Yet his fellow drivers said that on the track he was scrupulously fair and did not put anyone's safety other than his own in jeopardy. "

Perhaps if M.Schumacher wants to take examples from history, he should look to his fellow Ferrari brethren rather than Senna.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
Sorry mate, but I have to respond to this. In 15 years of competitive sailing, I have never cheated to win a race, let alone a championship. If I made a mistake like hitting a mark, I either re-rounded the mark (and in one case lost a championship doing so), or I did the required penalty. In the final analysis, you have to ask yourself what value you would place on a championship if you cheated to win.

Your missing my point VB, I agree that he did'nt deserve the championship that year and was glad he was disqualified in Jerez.

I will never argue against this because he was WRONG.

I am a big believer in "what goes around, comes around" and he was paid back in Jerez and again in 98 at Suzuka. Its time to move on people.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Wrex
Your missing my point VB, I agree that he did'nt deserve the championship that year and was glad he was disqualified in Jerez.

I will never argue against this because he was WRONG.

I am a big believer in "what goes around, comes around" and he was paid back in Jerez and again in 98 at Suzuka. Its time to move on people.

WREX, he wasn't disqualified in Jerez, he stuck himself in the kitty litter; he DNF'd. You did ask what it was like on the high moral ground - the beer tastes better.
I agree with you that it is time to move on - I would never have brought anything up if Drexel and GT_R hadn't stirred it up. And I vow that this is the very last time I am discussing this subject. I'm going to ignore any future discussions about these two races.

[Wrex]

Actually VB, he was disqualified from the 1997 championship for that little number.

I'm only in this discussion so it has more post than your Bernoldi thread and this is the perfect oppotunity

[Peter Mallett]

Which races are those then Bouncy?

[drexel]

Yes he has been made to pay for his indiscretions and he's also been prepared to accept it. Many if not all people who get to the top push those boundarys and sometimes break them (it maybe sad but it's a fact). MS pushed to far and he was penalised. The fact is both Hill and JV wern't seriously injured, they weren't even close to it. They knew what he was trying to do and if it was life threatening, there would of been many more repecussions.

And why is he at the head of the driver's saftey commitee if highly moral people think he is disgrace when it comes to safety.

Yes what about that thread Peter. Ppl die racing cars do they? At least they're not dying of hunger, or terminal disease or violent crimes. F1 is a proffessional sport where ppl get payed more money than others can dream of. It is dangerous, but so is walking down my street at night and inhaling the pollution in the air.

[Gt_R]

Quote: "...is time to move on - I would never have brought anything up if Drexel and GT_R hadn't stirred it up.""
Wierd...i thought i had said that i think it is pointless to have this argument right from the start...meaning that it should be a matter put to rest, and not be brought up! I would gladly have let it moved on and now...i am accused to stir it up by merely reinstating my stance and questioning some opinions which i do not share...strange?!

But hey...he was disqualified for the whole season. He did wrong, he had his punishment...so lets get on with it...

And VB...now your mindset is similar to MS...you as MS, so since GTR (senna) and drexel (Prost) did it...you just do the same and "brought things up"...and deny that you had the intention of doing it if not because of us!

Quote: "And I vow that this is the very last time I am discussing..."

For this i share the same interest with you and more with Wrex...its a past issue as i had stressed and in this post i shall tread no further!

HAVE A NICE DAY!

[neutral]

Ok, screw my exam,

Originally posted by Valve Bounce

explain how Tazio Nuvolari and Bernd Rosemeyer fit into this mould.

Ok, but please let me get hypothetical.

Imagine a scenario, were you were teleported back in time, and were given the honour to pose the great Tazio a few questions.

How important is winning to you?
Tazio responds......
Well of course, like my peers, I come to each race meet hoping for a win. But winning isnt everything to me. I race because I enjoy it, not for some trophy at the end. But I must admit, winning does give me a special feeling I cant describe.

You follow up with...



Do you feel as though there is a lot of pressure on you to win?

Not really. We race for fun, my team understands that, and my fans do as well. I suppose I put some pressure on myself, but at the end of the day its just another race, and there will always be another one.

Would you go all out in a race in order to win? Even if this looked unsportsmanlike at times?

Im always on the racing limit, but their are boundaries that should not be crossed, and I like to think of myself as someone who stays within those boundaries.

What about if that race decided the world championship?

Well then that certainly increases the pressure. Id probably push closer to those boundaries, while at the same time being careful not to cross them?

Could you forgive someone for crossing those boundaries?
Everyone makes mistakes. But unsportsmanlike behaviour is indeed hard to forgive. I suppose it would just depend on the situation.

You finally deliver your last question to Tazio....

Tazio, assume for the moment that Formula 1 is the biggest sport in the world. A world where over a billion people watch each race, A world were sponsors pay millions for logos on the champions' car. A world which treats the victor as a hero, and leaves only cynicism for the loser. Imagine Tazio!, just imagine a world where Enzo pays you 20 million to deliver the championship. Then imagine that he goes and spends another 200 million on the car for you to do it in. Now Tazio, would your answers to the previous questions remain the same? Could you now understand why a driver might mistakenly cross a boundary that should never be crossed?

Tazio smiles at the thought then quickly responds

But formula one will never be like that. Just take a look around kid, this is what formula one is about.

I follow Tazio's orders and begin to observe the surroundings. I see fellow drivers sharing jokes, fans wandering through the garages, mechanics of different teams having friendly chats. Suddenly Tazio begins to speak and I transfer my attention...

but I suppose if the world was as you described, then ...

Suddenly you find yourself back in the year 2001. While disappointed at not hearing Tazio's last answer, you soon realise that it is unnecessary. Tazio's previous statement brought everything to light. The two worlds of Formula 1 could not be further apart, and comparing attitudes towards winning from different era's is misleading.
People's reactions are influenced by their environment. I think even Tazio would sympathise with the demands a modern F1 racer faces.