HSCC Gold Cup (International Circuit)

[simon drabble]

JR would it not make more sense to move the B8's off to the Martini series and model it on a hibred of the old Group 4 Jonathan Baker used to run and the Group 6 series? That way you have B8's running with cars that are more equally suited rather than against MGB's Elites etc? At least twin cam pre 66 sports racers are period correct....
I know several cars that will not race with Guards because of the B8's. They are there as an invitation class so it makes sense to move them now Guards can fill grids with pre 66 cars...

[morninggents]

I have to agree with Simon. The B8s are more akin to the Martini cars than the sports cars they run with in Guards.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

What's the forecast??? Dry Martini or Martini on the Rocks?

Wet /Showers Saturday Middleing/fair Sunday Monday... says BBC

[john ruston]

It would make sense to mix B8's with Martini cars and leave Guards for Pre 66

Is it because they want Martini class to be open cars only?

It's HSCC so there will be a sensible reason rather than usual BS.

[Mike Bell]

Think something to do with open versus closed cockpit. Also Martini cars run slicks- is there current series where B8s run them? WSM?

[simon drabble]

Perhaps we need to wait for Mr Tizzard to stop racing his Lenham before we see a change!!
I have to say it is very frustrating (but understandable) when I hear pre 66 GT drivers saying that they would run with Guards but the B8's stop them.....

[Chris Sharples]

John,

Thanks for the kind words.

Between you and Marcus you've described the thinking.

-Yes when we introduced the Martini Trophy we saw it being for open cars, recreating the European championship of the mid seventies. There is a very nice French book on the seventies championship and we thought the grids looked gorgeous! That said we have a Martini drivers meeting at the Gold Cup so we can hear their views of what they would like for 2012.

-We have a very big entry for the Gold Cup meeting with reserves in four races. The biggest list was Guards where we had ten reserves. (We already had split races for SR and GT). Obviously we want as many members as possible to have the chance to race at this very nice meeting. Hence the arrangements described by Marcus.

Chris

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

they would run with Guards but the B8's stop them.....

There are only five B8s & a B6 entered. I recall many GT races in period at Oulton Park when Chevrons raced against Elans, MGBs, TVRs, Marcos' & Midgets.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Giraffe138

There are only five B8s & a B6 entered. I recall many GT races in period at Oulton Park when Chevrons raced against Elans, MGBs, TVRs, Marcos' & Midgets.

in 1966???!!! they must have been development models haha - in fact if you include the Ginettas and Lenhams there are 11 post 66 sports racers.
I think the problem other drivers have with them is two fold - firstly from an ego perspective they block out the podium and indeed top 10 spaces and secondly and more importantly they clearly have a unique driving style that requires them to cut back in front of you when they overtake which many (myself included) find deeply irratating.
If I may use a shooting analagy they are the equivalent of an invited guest who continually poaches birds from his neighbouring guns....

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

in 1966???!!! they must have been development models haha - in fact if you include the Ginettas and Lenhams there are 11 post 66 sports racers.
I think the problem other drivers have with them is two fold - firstly from an ego perspective they block out the podium and indeed top 10 spaces and secondly and more importantly they clearly have a unique driving style that requires them to cut back in front of you when they overtake which many (myself included) find deeply irratating.
If I may use a shooting analagy they are the equivalent of an invited guest who continually poaches birds from his neighbouring guns....

Yes, I accept that Simon. Purely being selfish, the field closely resembles a Motoring News GT Championship field from 1968/69 at Oulton, the period that I am most familiar with, the exception being that there is no big engine class that in period provided the odd Lola, GT40, Cobra, Lotus 30 etc to give the Chevrons a run for their money.

[simon drabble]

Tony that is a different race and yes I agree a race run to 68 era would be great but then of course the GT's would be different as well...... Elans with 1900 engines (possibly are now!) and Lotus 47 etc... but nevertheless that is not what we have now which is a pre 66 race with post 66 sports racers tacked on

[Giraffe138]

Simon, I'm sure I'd take a quite different view were I a competitor and not just a spectator.

[Chris Sharples]

Simon,

I understand your arguments about 'authenticity' and its a debate we have time and time again within the club. If track hire were free it would be a no brainer but remember that we have to balance this sort of issue against ensuring we have full grids that allow us to keep down the cost of your racing.

By the way have you logged the fact that at the Gold Cup (as in previous years) the Guards GT and Sports racers each have their own race?

Its the second meeting this year where demand for places has meant the club has split the race. We did the same in May on the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit. If there are future opportunities to split we would look to do it.

Overall Guards seems to be gaining in popularity. Entries year to date are running 10% up on last year which in turn was well up on the previous year and the entry for Guards at the Gold Cup is above 70.

Chris

[simon drabble]

Chris I guess the argument is simply would you prefer a grid full of pre 66 cars or would you prefer to see the B8's etc in Guards? It seems to me that you could have both a pre66 Guards and a grid of B8's and M1's etc... Whether this would be welcomed by the B8 drivers would be interesting to guage - I would have thought they would like some real competition as Guards must seem low lying fruit for them.

[Dan Rear]

Never mind about the Gts, what about the FF2000s, excellent entrt there !!

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Never mind about the Gts, what about the FF2000s, excellent entrt there !!

Ok, 23 entrants but nothing like the huge swarm of them that usually descend on Silverstone. Hoping for a good race!

[simon drabble]

Tony had a look and in 67 and 68 were dominated by Lotus 47, GT40, Porsche 904, T70 and of course B6's now a replication of that grid would of course make a great spectacle but I do think his is moving away from Guards.....

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Chris Sharples

Simon,

I understand your arguments about 'authenticity' and its a debate we have time and time again within the club. If track hire were free it would be a no brainer but remember that we have to balance this sort of issue against ensuring we have full grids that allow us to keep down the cost of your racing.

By the way have you logged the fact that at the Gold Cup (as in previous years) the Guards GT and Sports racers each have their own race?

Its the second meeting this year where demand for places has meant the club has split the race. We did the same in May on the Silverstone Grand Prix circuit. If there are future opportunities to split we would look to do it.

Overall Guards seems to be gaining in popularity. Entries year to date are running 10% up on last year which in turn was well up on the previous year and the entry for Guards at the Gold Cup is above 70.

Chris

Chris it must be a debate you have in Graham's splendid new Jaguar rather than with the actual competitors!!!
Guards is gaining in popularity which is exactly why you shoudl be asking yourself whether it is now time to remove the need of an invitation class......

[Teddington Ted]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Chris I guess the argument is simply would you prefer a grid full of pre 66 cars or would you prefer to see the B8's etc in Guards? It seems to me that you could have both a pre66 Guards and a grid of B8's and M1's etc... Whether this would be welcomed by the B8 drivers would be interesting to guage - I would have thought they would like some real competition as Guards must seem low lying fruit for them.

Simon

I'm broadly with you on this one but fully understand Chris's point about maximising grid sizes to keep race fees down. The Gold Cup solution is an interesting one though. For some reason this meeting always seems to attract lots of Elans (especially 26Rs) which have been included in the Sports Racing grid. Are we missing an obvious step here in the journey towards GT only Guards grids ? i.e. bolster the Sports Racing grid with Elans permanently. Reaction from Elan drivers out there ?

We could postion it as a special race series within the sports racers to celebrate 50 years of the Elan in 2012.

If we can repeat 70 entries for Guards on a regular basis we'll fill two grids at most circuits. And if drivers of GT cars know at the begining of the season that Guards will be sports racer free more will enter.

Mark

[simon drabble]

Mark to confirm I am only talking about post 66 sprts racers as the front running GT's (Elans and Marcos' and Jaguars) are as quick as the 23b's etc - I furthermore believe that if the post 66 cars were moved to a seperate grid you would get the early GT40's and Cobra's out.... I know at least 2 Cobra's that would come out

[Teddington Ted]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Mark to confirm I am only talking about post 66 sprts racers as the front running GT's (Elans and Marcos' and Jaguars) are as quick as the 23b's etc - I furthermore believe that if the post 66 cars were moved to a seperate grid you would get the early GT40's and Cobra's out.... I know at least 2 Cobra's that would come out

Fair enough. We seem though to have the same debate each year about this time and I can't help feeling that we need a creative solution. It frustrates the hell out of me that the HSCC doesn't run the UK's leading pre66 GT race series when it is probably the single largest category of cars.

Is there a concensus out there that a post 66 grid would be viable. Filling a pre 66 GT grid shouldn't be a problem.

[p261brm]

Seems to me that we used to have a lot less bother with these mid 60's, 70's cars in period, apart from Spanish Customs and carnets of course....

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Seems to me that we used to have a lot less bother with these mid 60's, 70's cars in period, apart from Spanish Customs and carnets of course....

I have an idea what made all the difference......start money!

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Giraffe138

I have an idea what made all the difference......start money!

Start money??? Can remember a few starts, as to money.. remember a chap called Bamford he were reputed to have a bob or two, another..Clydesdale, it were said he had a licence to print..rest of us lad's, nah no money.

[Giraffe138]

Originally Posted by p261brm

Start money??? Can remember a few starts, as to money.. remember a chap called Bamford he were reputed to have a bob or two, another..Clydesdale, it were said he had a licence to print..rest of us lad's, nah no money.

You were obviously talking to the wrong people. There were sports car races all over Europe, Scandanavia & Africa where there was good money to be had if you turned up and more if you scored well. Many teams spent the season chasing it.
Back to the Gold Cup, I was planning to pitch camp today but looking at the weather forcast (& er, out the window), that's not on! Hopefully better tomorrow but it doesn't look too great..........