Reiter engineering testing news!

[jhansen]

I agree with you tb, it does look a bit more positive with regards to Reiter's involvement. And the move to the Michelins is very positive in my opinion. Especially if Michelin gets involved and develops tires for a mid-engine gt car. At the moment, the mid-engine cars are running on Pirelli or Dunlop tires I believe. So it's about time Michelin jumped in. Besides, I'm sure someone in the future will want to run the Maserati on Michelins.

[Bramzel]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Neither did I - the Maserati people said the car should be around the same price as a Ferrari 575 if I remember rightly. And sure while the Lambourgini is cheaper it isnt half the price.

The numbers as I know them from people in the FIAGT paddock who should know how much they cost:

Ferrari 575: €800.000 for one car, plus €400.000 lease for 6 months engines. Automaticly gets you the latest engine-developments and you can blow up as many engines as you want.
Yearly costs for car + engines: €1.600.000

Lambo Murcielago: €500.000/550.000 for one car, including engine. That's it, though a new engine will have to be aquired when you blow one.
Yearly costs for car + engine (if you don't blow one): €550.000


So for a horrible load of extra money you get a more reliable car and more updates. But is that worth that difference if Reiter beats them on their first effort?

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Bramzel
So for a horrible load of extra money you get a more reliable car and more updates. But is that worth that difference if Reiter beats them on their first effort?

Firstly, as we know works Lambourgini did not beat the privateer entered BMS Ferrari 550s on its debut, sure because it had problems granted, but it still didnt beat them. And the Lambourgini didnt beat the 550s on pace either, look at the qualifying times, 5th for the Lambourgini behind the 2 BMS Ferrari 550s.

And yes Id say that for a team like Zwanns a well sorted car like a Ferrari 550 would be the ideal choice, as u have said if they blow the engines they get new ones included in the price, fortunatly though the 550s are pretty reliable. Purchasing a car like the Lambourgini on the other hand that has had numerous problems both in the ALMS and FIA GT this year would be a mistake IMO, particulary for a smaller team such as Zwanns. (In Comparisson to JMB, BMS, Creation etc)The team dosent have the money and the recources to extensivly develop the car, they should wait another year at least before purchasing a Lambo IMO, the car hasnt got the reliablity yet. The 550 has, and its becoming what the viper was say 3 or 4 years ago.

[tblincoe]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Firstly, as we know works Lambourgini did not beat the privateer entered BMS Ferrari 550s on its debut, sure because it had problems granted, but it still didnt beat them. And the Lambourgini didnt beat the 550s on pace either, look at the qualifying times, 5th for the Lambourgini behind the 2 BMS Ferrari 550s.

And yes Id say that for a team like Zwanns a well sorted car like a Ferrari 550 would be the ideal choice, as u have said if they blow the engines they get new ones included in the price, fortunatly though the 550s are pretty reliable. Purchasing a car like the Lambourgini on the other hand that has had numerous problems both in the ALMS and FIA GT this year would be a mistake IMO, particulary for a smaller team such as Zwanns. (In Comparisson to JMB, BMS, Creation etc)The team dosent have the money and the recources to extensivly develop the car, they should wait another year at least before purchasing a Lambo IMO, the car hasnt got the reliablity yet. The 550 has, and its becoming what the viper was say 3 or 4 years ago.

uhh im pretty sure he was referring to the R-GT beating the 575, not the 550

[Bramzel]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Firstly, as we know works Lambourgini did not beat the privateer entered BMS Ferrari 550s on its debut, sure because it had problems granted, but it still didnt beat them. And the Lambourgini didnt beat the 550s on pace either, look at the qualifying times, 5th for the Lambourgini behind the 2 BMS Ferrari 550s.

I'm not comparing the Murcielago to the Prodrive 550, I'm comparing it to the Ferrari 575. Major difference. And if you compare the Reiter times with the 575's you'll see that it did beat those.

And yes Id say that for a team like Zwanns a well sorted car like a Ferrari 550 would be the ideal choice, as u have said if they blow the engines they get new ones included in the price, fortunatly though the 550s are pretty reliable. Purchasing a car like the Lambourgini on the other hand that has had numerous problems both in the ALMS and FIA GT this year would be a mistake IMO, particulary for a smaller team such as Zwanns. (In Comparisson to JMB, BMS, Creation etc)The team dosent have the money and the recources to extensivly develop the car, they should wait another year at least before purchasing a Lambo IMO, the car hasnt got the reliablity yet. The 550 has, and its becoming what the viper was say 3 or 4 years ago.

You're conflicting the 550 and the 575 here now. On the Prodrive 550 I agree, it's what the Viper was in it's topyears. Major difference though is that these Prodrive 550's are only ran by a couple of selected teams, while it was much easier for a privateer to buy a Viper. The 575 isn't a new Viper at all, it has the reliability by now but it doesn't have the speed and I really doubt if it will ever get the proper speed.

You're wrong in the fact that Zwaans can't develop the car, they did a proper job on the Viper. They can develop the car just like other teams can, it's more a matter of dedication then money. And if you buy a Murc instead of a 575 you save 1 million euros wich you can spend on development.

Knowing the Zwaans guys I also know the 575 never was/is a option for them. Too expensive and not enough potential.

[tblincoe]

if i were Zwaans i wouldn't look at a 575 either... the 575 can be quick (look at the top cars from JMB and GPC Giesse), but it is inconsistent, and most importantly, not quick enough to warrant the astronomical price. heck, the 550 is cheaper!!! you could buy two R-GTs for cheaper than the 575, and i believe that with a moderate winter development program, coupled with tire development and the new 6.5L V12, the R-GT will be a cost-effective solution for low to medium budget privateers to race against the MC-12s and DBR-9s in the future.

[Bramzel]

Agreed on that one. If I would start a GT team I wouldn't buy a 575 or a MC12, simply because they're too expensive. I'd hope to be able to buy a Prodrive 550 or DBR9, and otherwise I'd probably choose between a Konrad Saleen or a Murcielago.

[tblincoe]

does anyone know how much the ACEMCO team bought their factory-built S7-R for? this seems to me to be the most reliable and one of the fastest S7-Rs available for the ACO regs. the lower revving V8 would most likely be the easiest engine to maintain and for the first year in ACEMCO's hands it has been pretty darn reliable.

[jhansen]

Reliable yes, fast enough, no. The ACO's GT1/GTS rules hose the Saleens. It's too bad they can't loosen up the restrictions a bit for those cars. It's not like it would automatically make it a race winner against the Vettes, but at least it could have a better chance.

[SALEEN S7R]

The Ferrari 575 has a shed load of potential, and we will see that next year. Its always had reliabilty on the engine side of things, now the car just needs to get a little bit more sorted areodynamically. Everything about the 575 should be faster than the 550, and as we are seeing, today for example the 575's are beginning to come on song. 3rd overall in 2nd practise today for FIA GT and 3rd fastest in the morning too. Lets not forget that this is the first year of the cars racing life and already getting podiums and lots of points finishes. Did the Ferrari 550s get that in their debut season? No. It took time, the same applies with the 575.

[jhansen]

Agreed Saleen, but look who's developing them. It's nowhere near like what Prodrive invested in development for the 550, and now the DBR9.

[SALEEN S7R]

JMB are a big operation, do not underestimate them. JMB might not be as well funded as Prodrive but they are very close to the factory in terms of personal etc, and u can be sure Ferrari will be assisting them over the winter at Fiorano. Im certain that the 575's will be sucessful, just look at www.fiagt.com in the results section, the cars are getting faster and faster throughout the season and the results are beginning to come, any reason why that should change for 2005? Personally I dont think so providing the cars are continually developed, which they obviously are at the moment.

[jhansen]

Quote from Bramzel: "And if you compare the Reiter times with the 575's you'll see that it did beat those."


Has it really beaten the 575's? It did in the wet at Valencia, but what about in the dry? At Zuhai today, all of the 575's were in front of the Dam's Lambos in the second practice session and the Lambo only beat one 575 in the first session. The Lambo also had trouble matching the ACEMCO Saleen in the ALMS. It just hasn't been that quick. It needs to be sorted before you can call it quicker than the 575's.

[tblincoe]

Originally posted by jhansen
Reliable yes, fast enough, no. The ACO's GT1/GTS rules hose the Saleens. It's too bad they can't loosen up the restrictions a bit for those cars. It's not like it would automatically make it a race winner against the Vettes, but at least it could have a better chance.

what i was saying was that the ACEMCO S7-R was the fastest ACO saleen, not the fastest car

[Bramzel]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
JMB are a big operation, do not underestimate them. JMB might not be as well funded as Prodrive but they are very close to the factory in terms of personal etc, and u can be sure Ferrari will be assisting them over the winter at Fiorano. Im certain that the 575's will be sucessful, just look at www.fiagt.com in the results section, the cars are getting faster and faster throughout the season and the results are beginning to come, any reason why that should change for 2005? Personally I dont think so providing the cars are continually developed, which they obviously are at the moment.

JMB isn't developing the 575 like Prodrive does to the 550. JMB has to depend on Ferrari for proper developments, the developments on the car they can do for themselves are limited. In that case GPC is a more professional team, wich Ferrari also seems to think as GPC got to test the development-updates at the Spa testday and GPC got Salo as driver for Spa. Also, for 2005 I still don't have my hopes up. Yes, they'll get their podiums again, yes they'll be in the points, yes they'll improve again. But they still won't have the speed to beat the Maserati's, 550's and Saleens. Because those will improve again as well, and those are simply faster from the base up.

Originally posted by jhansen
Quote from Bramzel: "And if you compare the Reiter times with the 575's you'll see that it did beat those."


Has it really beaten the 575's? It did in the wet at Valencia, but what about in the dry? At Zuhai today, all of the 575's were in front of the Dam's Lambos in the second practice session and the Lambo only beat one 575 in the first session. The Lambo also had trouble matching the ACEMCO Saleen in the ALMS. It just hasn't been that quick. It needs to be sorted before you can call it quicker than the 575's.

On the dry it outpaced the 575's as well. There seems to be a large difference when the car isn't in factoryhands though, and Valencia definitely is a track that suits the Lambo (has lot's of downforce, but lacks topspeed).

I think the main problem DAMS is having at the moment is that they've got too many technical problems to get really familiar with the car, get a proper base-setup and get the setups for the car sorted. You saw that in Dubai as well. It can't be the team or the drivers (Piccini/Deletraz), both have a long history and much experience in motorsport.

[BSchneiderFan]

Though Piccini and Deletraz are not of the calibre, to my mind, of Kox, Gavin, Kristensen or Capello, all of whom have also driven the Murcielago.

[lowieracing]

the main problem does seem to rely with the actual Dams team and a few of the drivers who are less familiar with the car, it has to take at least a season for the team to become familiar with the r-gt, it runs quick when its in reiter's hands due to the fact that they actually built the car and have an intricate knowledge of its meachanics and the aero packages available for it.

[Bramzel]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
Though Piccini and Deletraz are not of the calibre, to my mind, of Kox, Gavin, Kristensen or Capello, all of whom have also driven the Murcielago.

Agreed. Kox and Gavin showed the potential of the car in Valencia, when Kristensen and Capello drove it in Monza in 2003 the car just wasn't ready yet.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Bramzel
JMB isn't developing the 575 like Prodrive does to the 550. JMB has to depend on Ferrari for proper developments, the developments on the car they can do for themselves are limited. In that case GPC is a more professional team, wich Ferrari also seems to think as GPC got to test the development-updates at the Spa testday and GPC got Salo as driver for Spa. Also, for 2005 I still don't have my hopes up. Yes, they'll get their podiums again, yes they'll be in the points, yes they'll improve again. But they still won't have the speed to beat the Maserati's, 550's and Saleens. Because those will improve again as well, and those are simply faster from the base up.

I dunno, cars like the Ferrari 550 are nearing the end of their useful development potential IMO. Sure the Maserati and Saleen and DB9R have a lot more to come, but so does the 575, the 550 is edging closer to the end of its racing life at the front of the field IMO.

[tblincoe]

i could be wrong, but i doubt the 575 will ever be faster than the 550... and certainly not fast enough to warrant the astronomical price. just get a MC-12 or a DBR-9, why get a 575???

[Garp]

I dunno, cars like the Ferrari 550 are nearing the end of their useful development potential IMO.

Why 550 getting out dated while 575 still has potential???
What's the real difference in those machines. It has the same base car. You can build a 550 the same as the 575, and vice versa.

The difference is the tuner conversion, and Prodrive is a lot better than Ferrari.

Still i don't get Prodrive why they build a front engined car. I think you need a MC12 like special to be a future champion.
It would be a nice idea if mr Dior bought a Enzo( or Koenigsegg) and convert it privatliy to a racecar.

What are the ideas about the need of a near perfect base car to convert? Is GT racing getting more proffesional and compettitive?
So you need a rear engined car with a low drag profile or can front engined cars still be competitive in the future?

[Jeffrey-Lee]

The Lambo didn't do too bad in qualifying today! On the same pace as teh S7R's and 575's.

[Bramzel]

Originally posted by Garp

Still i don't get Prodrive why they build a front engined car. I think you need a MC12 like special to be a future champion.
It would be a nice idea if mr Dior bought a Enzo( or Koenigsegg) and convert it privatliy to a racecar.

Probably because there aren't too many mid-engined cars in the GT class. A Enzo would be too expensive I'd say and the Koenigsegg could encounter problems with homologation because there aren't that many road-legal models of it.

[Chucky]

Front engined rear drive isn't so bad for endurance GT racing.

[marcush.]

interestingly enough one would think the front engined layout would cause a debilating heat in the drivers compartment but as I undersand the Lambo beats everyone else in that respect.It´s beyond me how someone can build an endurance car without thinking about driver comfort especially when the series has a room for gentleman drivers...