Has a driver ever won the WDC in a car that wasn't the best

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Mercedes was under quite some pressure in Monza apparently. After all, after Spa Mercedes "had nothing".

Ah yes, Monza. Let's recap shall we?

FP1 - SV 3rd and KR 4th (Dry)
FP2 - SV 3rd and KR 4th (Dry)
FP3 - SV 10th and KR 11th (WET)

Qualified - SV 8th and KR 7th (WET)

Race result - SV 3rd and KR 5th (Dry)

So in the dry SV and KR did very good. When in the wet however, they both prove to be not so good. Cannot drive in wet weather. Overrated, both of them. But in the dry race, with a superior car SV still managed to finish 3rd and KR 5th. The Ferrari car is very good. Too bad the Ferrari drivers are not so good, specially in the wet.

Thank you, have a nice day.

[Kempi]

While you enjoy your day, take a look at wnut's post. He points out the most relevant fact that you ignore when you look at positions and not laptimes. Besides, last I learned, 3rd position was still behind 1st and 2nd where Mercedes ended up in Monza...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Ah yes, Monza. Let's recap shall we?

FP1 - SV 3rd and KR 4th (Dry)
FP2 - SV 3rd and KR 4th (Dry)
FP3 - SV 10th and KR 11th (WET)

Qualified - SV 8th and KR 7th (WET)

Race result - SV 3rd and KR 5th (Dry)

So in the dry SV and KR did very good. When in the wet however, they both prove to be not so good. Cannot drive in wet weather. Overrated, both of them. But in the dry race, with a superior car SV still managed to finish 3rd and KR 5th. The Ferrari car is very good. Too bad the Ferrari drivers are not so good, specially in the wet.

Thank you, have a nice day.

Red Bull feel that Vettel is up amongst the best wet-weather drivers of all time...

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/the-r...nna-schumacher

And as is regularly stated (including by Red Bull) 'Best of all, rain is the great equaliser.'

So looking at the performances you give for VET and RAI, it just suggests that the wet conditions allow other cars to exceed their normal dry performance.

It is also impossible to describe the difference between wet and dry as a binary condition - as all of the field will have had different conditions during FP3 and Q, the results only have little merit in comparing ability.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

The cognitive dissonance on this forum is quite staggering at times...

Thanks Sigmund!

[Adam43]

F1 guy you are excelling yourself recently!

There is nothing to point towards Vettel being good in the wet or good at Monza. Nothing at all.

[djinvicta]

I still reckon F1 Guy is Toto...or Susie...

[chunterer]

The best wet weather driver by some margin is Lewis. Alonso, Max and the Hulk are also very adept and so it seems is Sainz.

Most of the others are a bit more hesitant.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

The cognitive dissonance on this forum is quite staggering at times...

I might agree with you if I understood the statement....!

[ASCII Man]

I was talking about this illusion that Mercedes was somehow... 'struggling' or behind Ferrari in terms of performance.
That, to me, is quite staggering, yet may provide some data towards science to aid in research of this theory of 'alternate realities'.

[NaBUru38]

I think that the last clear example is 1995, but not by much.

[S griffin]

Nah 2005 for definite

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I was talking about this illusion that Mercedes was somehow... 'struggling' or behind Ferrari in terms of performance.
That, to me, is quite staggering, yet may provide some data towards science to aid in research of this theory of 'alternate realities'.

It must have been, otherwise how do you explain Vettel winning? There is no way a drive of his low talent could win unless Ferrari had such a high performance advantage.

In case anyone is in doubt about this post:

[Akrapovic]

I find it adorable that people would go through such mental gymnastics to believe that the team that leads both championships would be 'struggling'. Some people will actually make up an alternative reality to confirm their own biases.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I find it adorable that people would go through such mental gymnastics to believe that the team that leads both championships would be 'struggling'. Some people will actually make up an alternative reality to confirm their own biases.

Agree.

Richard

[chillibowl]

is it confirmation bias or is it that this forum has just become increasingly hostile over the past few months and people are less willing to have honest and open conversations about things?

regardless of whether you think the Merc is better than Ferrari or vice verse, the Merc is certainly not 118 constructor points better.

anyways, im not on one side or the other but i can certainly see where people are coming from on the Ferrari side.

and 5 races left to go, 125 points for the drivers title still up for grabs, engines are getting used up and and fortune can change very quickly.

anyways long rant short, regardless of who wins i think there is a legitimate argument to be made that the other title protagonist had the better car but just made more mistakes/had worse luck.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is it confirmation bias or is it that this forum has just become increasingly hostile over the past few months and people are less willing to have honest and open conversations about things?

I think the two items you bring up are separate, but can be intertwined. To try to answer your questions...

Is if confirmation bias? Maybe? In some cases, probably? Particularly with outlandish claims. It's always hard to know what is going in inside someone else's head. Especially in a forum like this.

Has the forum become more hostile and is people being shouted down? I have been here since 2009 (longer than some and shorter than others) and my opinion is that it ebbs and flows and pretty much fully tracks with the personalities of those who post frequently. Visit other parts of the forum and just watch the personalities at play. The F1 forum is no different.

Regarding openness... I can only speak for myself. I am not self censoring, but I AM trying to remain positive, fair, not unfairly negative or contrary, but still critical (when needed) in my replies. I enjoy a good discussion, but not arguments. As they say... attack the post and not the poster!

Originally Posted by chillibowl

regardless of whether you think the Merc is better than Ferrari or vice verse, the Merc is certainly not 118 constructor points better.

Matter of opinion. Remember that the points are a reflection of the season as a whole. My opinion is that both Ferrari have had their ups and down, but that in general Mercedes "on average" is a much better package overall. I absolutely don't believe the theory that Ferrari is overall better and it is purely down to driver talent that has put Mercedes ahead.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways, im not on one side or the other but i can certainly see where people are coming from on the Ferrari side.

and 5 races left to go, 125 points for the drivers title still up for grabs, engines are getting used up and and fortune can change very quickly.

anyways long rant short, regardless of who wins i think there is a legitimate argument to be made that the other title protagonist had the better car but just made more mistakes/had worse luck.

Ultimately it is why we have a points system. Outside of those points we can argue this twelve different ways and we may not agree as a group who is best, worst or otherwise.

Richard

[jimclark]

Rindt - '70 - in the over-the-hill 49 and under-developed 72.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

The cognitive dissonance on this forum is quite staggering at times...

I'm sorry I can't accept this as everyone here is structured and rational in their thinking and I cannot reconcile this with your statement.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is it confirmation bias or is it that this forum has just become increasingly hostile over the past few months and people are less willing to have honest and open conversations about things?

I think there's a lot more fanboys than there used to be, or maybe that's just my perception. I don't think it's possible to have a conversation about Max Verstappen at all, as he's never ever at fault. Similarly, many conversations about Vettel just turn nonsensical and criticise him for things like speaking Italian. I think these sorts of discussions (or lack of) mean that when it comes to other topics, perhaps tolerances are shorter - and I am perhaps guilty of that too

I do agree with you that the Mercedes is perhaps not 118 points better. But people were generally reply to the comments of the Mercedes being behind the Ferrari, or potentially being behind the Ferrari (some are actually predicting the future now to confirm their own biases!). It might not be 118 points better, but some of the claims being made are the F1 equivalent to the flat-earth society in that it's hard to form a good answer, given how crazy the claim is. I could claim the Mercedes is actually worse than the McLaren, but Lewis (and Bottas) are just so far ahead of everyone else that they make up for it - but I would expect to be ridiculed for it.

[gert]

Is there even such thing as "the best car". I would think the relative performances of the cars tend to shift from track to track, depend on weather conditions, are influenced by the strength/weaknesses of the engine, and most likely the tire make or tire compounds play a role as well.

Apart from the McLaren-Honda of 1988 I can't really think of a single car that was dominant in all different circumstances.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by gert

Is there even such thing as "the best car". I would think the relative performances of the cars tend to shift from track to track, depend on weather conditions, are influenced by the strength/weaknesses of the engine, and most likely the tire make or tire compounds play a role as well.

Apart from the McLaren-Honda of 1988 I can't really think of a single car that was dominant in all different circumstances.

How the Ferrari of 2002?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by gert

Is there even such thing as "the best car". I would think the relative performances of the cars tend to shift from track to track, depend on weather conditions, are influenced by the strength/weaknesses of the engine, and most likely the tire make or tire compounds play a role as well.

Apart from the McLaren-Honda of 1988 I can't really think of a single car that was dominant in all different circumstances.

Perhaps the 1996 Williams. Only missed 4 race wins through the season. Engine failure at Monaco, crashes at Barcelona and Monza, and Schumacher was amazing at Spa. I'd say other than a single engine failure, the car was dominant and the drivers let it down that year.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by jimclark

Rindt - '70 - in the over-the-hill 49 and under-developed 72.

What car was better? There was no stand out car that year iirc.

[Graz]

Originally Posted by gert

Is there even such thing as "the best car". I would think the relative performances of the cars tend to shift from track to track, depend on weather conditions, are influenced by the strength/weaknesses of the engine, and most likely the tire make or tire compounds play a role as well.

Apart from the McLaren-Honda of 1988 I can't really think of a single car that was dominant in all different circumstances.

To the other answers I'll add the 92 and 93 Williams. Waaay superior to everything else and in every circumstance. These cars were more dominant than the 88 McLaren which was against a field split between atmos and turbos which were not equally balanced. Technically in 92 & 93, everyone was on a level playing field as opposed to the transition year that was 88.

'84 McLaren too, only the unreliability of that era prevented more wins. They still won 11 out of 16 or whatever it was.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by gert

Is there even such thing as "the best car".

Apart from the McLaren-Honda of 1988 I can't really think of a single car that was dominant in all different circumstances.

"Yes".

(hand raised high, jumping up and down)
"I can!!! I can!!!"

(A tad more subdued)
"The Lotus 79 gert...."