S2000 replaced by tubechassis V8´s ?

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Don't think so - however in the early days of WTCC there were some Civic (not current shape of course).

There were a couple (I'm not shure about the amount) in STCC as well, before Engström switched to the Accord.

[Aslak Vind]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

There were a couple (I'm not shure about the amount) in STCC as well, before Engström switched to the Accord.

Tom Kristensen put in 2003 - 2004 two JAS Honda Civic Type-R racers in DTC acouple of years ago, under the K-Motorsport banner. one of them is racing in SSC now.

[Aslak Vind]

Jens Edman has been a guestdriver in the Swedish Camaro Cup series this weekend. Apart from having fun back home, I dont think it is a coincident

[PorscheFanNo1]

Well its no seacret Edman wants to return to STCC, he was looking for a drive this year but didnt get a good enough offer, amongst others he talked to Opel Team Sweden, a shame that fell through, hope Opel will be back next season tho.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

If they're planning that they are utterly stupid and they are murdering the sport. Touringcar racing is all about cars based on streetcars, not tubeframed V8's. Also the choice for V8's is a weird and dumb one: in a time where everybody is talking about the environment it would be much wiser to use a V6, throw in some ethanol and present it as a green concept to attract more sponsors and media attention.

So far I have yet to hear one fan busting loose to get to the race track because the race cars are running ethanol or diesel. Ultimately I believe people go to be entertained, not to save the environment. Nor do I think commercial sponsors really care much if a alternative fuel is used. If it's a big deal you can always run V8's on E85.

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Interesting news from Janne Flash, it seems that the Nordic organizers has held more than one meeting. However, one thing Janne forgets is the fact, that if the cars should be buildt as a DTM car, the cost would be extreme?

From what I've heard S2000 cars are a significant six figure price. If you buy a P+M chassis the euro/$ rate is really good right now, so the cost probably isn't much of a difference. Plus parts and maintenance might be easier.

[awrb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

So far I have yet to hear one fan busting loose to get to the race track because the race cars are running ethanol or diesel. Ultimately I believe people go to be entertained, not to save the environment. Nor do I think commercial sponsors really care much if a alternative fuel is used. If it's a big deal you can always run V8's on E85.

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.

It's not that we want to go and see these green race cars, but manufacturers such as Volvo like having this environmantal connaction to their brand. therefore, it could attrack more manufacturers, or sponsors such as cartridge world, which is better for us fans.

True, manufacturers have not really embraced S2000 as we all hoped, but if these new WTCC reg's come in, and we get stability in that championship, maybe more will join.

[Aslak Vind]

It will morally not be viable to run V8´s without them running on green fuel. It is the way things are proceeding, and so it should be. Believing anything else is naive.

Racing must conform to the reality the rest of society rests in. So it can only be a good thing, given the state of the enviroment. And as awrb mentions, more and more manufacturers has enviromental connections as a part of their brand.

So in all, everyone wins.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by awrb

It's not that we want to go and see these green race cars, but manufacturers such as Volvo like having this environmantal connaction to their brand. therefore, it could attrack more manufacturers, or sponsors such as cartridge world, which is better for us fans.

True, manufacturers have not really embraced S2000 as we all hoped, but if these new WTCC reg's come in, and we get stability in that championship, maybe more will join.

Personally I think the whole "green fad" is going away. If it is an issue though, E85 ethanol works just fine.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

It will morally not be viable to run V8´s without them running on green fuel. It is the way things are proceeding, and so it should be. Believing anything else is naive.

Racing must conform to the reality the rest of society rests in. So it can only be a good thing, given the state of the enviroment. And as awrb mentions, more and more manufacturers has enviromental connections as a part of their brand.

So in all, everyone wins.

I think it's plenty moral to run V8's. They are loud, stinky, fast engines. Motor Racing is about having fun and enjoying life. I can always recycle aluminum cans during the week.

Bovine emissions more lethal than 20 V8's going around a track. One cow puts out 1000 liters of methane each day which traps 23 times more heat in the atmosphere than C02. I've seen plenty of cows in Denmark, so I propose a carbon trading scheme of 20 cows turned into hamburger for every race. If we do that we've assuaged our guilt about the environment, we've purged some lethal methane from the atmosphere and saved some grass that eats CO2 and we have burgers to grill for the race. Everyone wins!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Personally I think the whole "green fad" is going away.

Don't think so. I won't get into a(nother) global warming debate here, but I guess that at any race event with a somewhat decent crowd, the spectators' journeys to the track produce several times more CO2 than the actual racing. So in the end there's no big difference between a race run on conventional fuel and one run on ethanol, or a professional football game or a rock concert, for that matter.
Of course manufacturers and other powers that be might push for a greener image for racing, but at least to me that doesn't amount to a moral obligation to Green Racing.
I have absolutely no problem with going green, but not if the sport on track is the victim. If it can be done without unreasonable additional costs I'm all for it.

If it is an issue though, E85 ethanol works just fine.

Agreed. Especially with Pratt&Millers knowledge of "Green Racing" from the Corvette-programm, running the cars on E85 should be a piece of cake.

Maybe we should try to get away from the question of the morality of V8s and get back to the issue at hand - namely the possibility of a Danish V8 Silhouette-series and the possible move away from S2000.
I can easily see this truning into another of those terrible global warming discussions, and I'd rather not go through that again.
The question what implications this will have on the Danish and European racing scene is interesting enough!

[PorscheFanNo1]

"Going green" has done wonders for STCC, the Gothenburg race would never have happend if it wasnt for the bio-fuel for this season, and Stockholm even contacted STCC about the possibilities for a race in downtown Stockholm, that would never ever have happend if it wasnt for the work STCC is doing for a greener racing. STCC have taken this way further then anyone else, probably only ALMS is the only one that can compare to what STCC has done the past seasons to encurrage the use of E85 and Bio-fuel, they even banned coolant fluid, now running on water only. In Sweden this has really been a win-win situation, the politics likes it so the serie gets more attention and they get races in very good locations so the fans likes it, and thus the sponsors likes it and so on and so on.
I honestly belive "going green" is the future for especially Touringcar racing, its the wave of the future, for sure.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

I am told, that the cars will be technically generic, with common driveetrain and engine, buildt by P+M.

So the only parts relating to the marque, will be the bodyshell and other parts. Which might be the only way to go, as several of the manufacturers does not produce a V8. But I dont know for sure..

The Danish regulation is S2000, with national adjustments.

Interesting news from Janne Flash, it seems that the Nordic organizers has held more than one meeting. However, one thing Janne forgets is the fact, that if the cars should be buildt as a DTM car, the cost would be extreme?

Another V8Star?

[Alex K]

V8STAR wasn't that bad, it was slow, nowhere near V8 Supercars or Brazilian Stock Cars but was mch cheapper to run and build than DTM, but it couldn't survive. The idea maybe isn't that bad if the championhsip will be cheapper to run than DTCC S2000 formula, and if they can get to terms with STCC...

Still odd info, because it really is one of the best S2000 series in the world, I'd rather speak to Swedes than create new formula.

[werner]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it. Plus it's not a big draw for crowds and manufacturers have been lukewarm about it. I've heard BMW may pull out of the WTCC and Alfa is already long gone.

As long as BMW can sell S2000-cars to customer-racers all over Europe in the way they can, they won't quit WTCC. The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by werner

The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.

No they don't. It takes a lot of investments to keep the cars competative, the customer program is basically financing the factory teams. They're definitely not making huge profits on their customer program.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by werner

As long as BMW can sell S2000-cars to customer-racers all over Europe in the way they can, they won't quit WTCC. The WTCC-programme might come at a cost, but they make good money on the customer-program.

I hear they might want to quit WTCC in favor of GT2 of which they are running in the ALMS next year.

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by Alex K

V8STAR wasn't that bad, it was slow, nowhere near V8 Supercars or Brazilian Stock Cars but was mch cheapper to run and build than DTM, but it couldn't survive. The idea maybe isn't that bad if the championhsip will be cheapper to run than DTCC S2000 formula, and if they can get to terms with STCC...

Still odd info, because it really is one of the best S2000 series in the world, I'd rather speak to Swedes than create new formula.

I don't really think the main thing is that the cars are fast, but that they LOOK fast. Todays S2000 cars does pretty decent times around the circuits but for the average person it looks like everyone could do it.

As I said earlier higher power to grip ratio = exciting racing for everyone = more interest from spectators = more interest from manufacturers.

That´s my firm belief and I think it would be quite possible for, for example, DTC and STCC to come up with something like this without it becoming to expensive.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

As I said earlier higher power to grip ratio = exciting racing for everyone = more interest from spectators = more interest from manufacturers.

That´s my firm belief and I think it would be quite possible for, for example, DTC and STCC to come up with something like this without it becoming to expensive.

Agreed. Although the involvement of Pratt and Miller, who are at least right now married to GM, might be a problem for interested manufacturers.
I can't see BMW or Audi authorizing the use of their name on their car that has literarly ZERO connection to their roadcars. So this will either lead to Opels racing Chevys or to the same unauthorized silhouettes without proper manufacturer recognition that V8STAR had to use.

As for the costs: Riley technologies -who are one of the other usual suspects you go to in America for tubeframe cars - sell their Daytona Prototype for 403k $ without engine. They produce however a trackday-version of the car that is for sale for "only" 165k $.
If P&M can do a similar amount of cost-cutting for a chassis that runs without competition, these cars might become a real bargain. The current exchange rate for the dollar would help even more.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I hear they might want to quit WTCC in favor of GT2 of which they are running in the ALMS next year.

The ALMS programme is controlled and funded by BMW North America, the WTCC programme from Munich I believe. So I doubt entering the ALMS will affect their involvement in touring cars, except maybe for a few drivers crossing over.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

From the "Benelux-Touringcar-Championship"-Thread:

But I don't think S2000 was a serious option. IMO it's a shame they haven't chosen Superstars.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

S2000 is okay, but I think everyone is getting bored with it.

Getting bored with S2000? Not me. BTCC and WTCC are delivering still great racing.


This Danish proposal sounds like Stock Car Brasil: Single make chassis and single make V8 engine.




Currently Chevrolet, Peugeot and Mitsubishi are racing in this series. More about this series:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Car_Brasil
• http://stockcar.globo.com
• http://www.stockcar2007.com.br/image/?_orderBy=addedDt
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLsH9pwE8Hc

I don't know if this works in Europe. Manufacturers didn't allow to use their brands in V8Stars. And V8 engines? I think a 2L NA or 2L turbo is more logical.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Get them 1.6 litre engines with 9000 rpms and 2 bars of boost, that should be plenty to spin the wheels up and plenty of turbo lag so if you get taped you can either choose to get off the gas and loose the boost and drop 10 places or floor it and hope for the best. Should produce some exiting races.

[Speed-King]

Wait: Stockcar Brazil still has spec-engines?

Didn't know that. Where's the point for the manufacturers?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

Promotor Peter Elgaard and Jan Magnussen, who is representing the teams as he partly owns Alternative Engineering (Former Peugeot Sport), visited Sunday with P+M to see their offering concerning tubularchassis cars. Obviously the target is costcutting, but I cant see the benefit or payoff..

Jan Magnussen is also factory driver of the P+M Corvette. Is he the right man to represent the teams?

[Aslak Vind]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Jan Magnussen is also factory driver of the P+M Corvette. Is he the right man to represent the teams?

To be honest, I think Jan is ONLY acting as a liason, and not a representative of the teams. Basically it is 100% up to the promoter to bargain a deal through, which he believes in and see as commercially viable. Then afterwards the promoter needs to sell the idea on to the teams in question.

But eitherway, I find it strange as well. No matter how you cut the cake, Jan has a doublerole.