GP2 Series R06 Nürburgring - Racing weekend thread & general philosophising

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Adri_tifosi

Soucek was 3rd in the practice and today , five laps to final another retirement , I don´t think the problem is the driver , because DPR has 0 points

It was definatly the car today, he had some handling issues by the look of it.

[Jackman]

Doesn't explain him brake testing the others though, does it?

[Last2LiftOff]

Hey, thanks to this thread, I just remembered SpeedTV's tape-delayed broadcast of this race is on....right now.

[chunterer]

So Soucek's the phantom brake tester then is he (allegedly)?

This morning's race was a yawn to be honest wasn't it?

Action: Take those silly winglets and whatever the other entirely overtaking ruining mods that were added pre season off the cars now!! They must be to blame!!

Did anything of particular note happen?

Nakajima should've got past Hirate later on.

Maldonado should've got past Hirate earlier on and then been free to have a pop at Zaugg.

Maybe then Javier Villa wouldn't have had it so easy?

Easy for me to say as an armchair buff though.

[strider]

I'm glad you said all that, chunterer. To me some of the magic of GP2 has gone away this season. Maybe it's because we don't have a Hamilton/Piquet or Rosberg/Kovalainen battle going on that I can see.

[Knowlesy]

GP2 has been a dissapointment this year, no question. Maybe it is the daft changes to the cars that were made for no reason, but it is more likely that the talent pool is really desperately shallow compared to previous years.

There are no standout stars. No Rosberg, Hamilton, Kovaleinen. Or even a Piquet.

Instead we have people who are barely out of Pampers or people desperately short of experience like Zaugg and suchlike. Guys like Ammermueller have dissapointed. It's all horrid and I want it to end.

On top of this, Glock and Villa won this weekend and ruined the season pattern of a different winner every race.

[Knowlesy]

Oops, double post.

[bella]

well you can't have heroics every year. gp2 has been lucky in that it had the same flood of stars over it's first few years who made the past few years of frenault, f3 and world series quite so compelling.

now is the time to start looking at talent instead of names i s'pose.

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by bella

now is the time to start looking at talent instead of names i s'pose.

Agree. And mainly it seems that we're looking for names and sensation-build starts from karting grounds, more than people that could form a respectable style after years and years of training. Remind the case of Seb Bourdais, who drove at similar taste times at F3000 era, about year 2000. And now where he is.

[Sev]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

GP2 has been a dissapointment this year, no question. Maybe it is the daft changes to the cars that were made for no reason, but it is more likely that the talent pool is really desperately shallow compared to previous years.

There are no standout stars. No Rosberg, Hamilton, Kovaleinen. Or even a Piquet.

I wouldn't say that the talent pool was shallow compared to previous years (well, maybe slightly). Merely the combination of talent and experience is lacking.

There are several drivers who've impressed me a lot this year, namely Senna and Nakajima. And in the fill-ins there have been some impressive drivers too, like Buemi and Albuquerque. Now, none of this changes the relatively poor standard of racing we're seeing next year, but it makes me hopeful for next year. There's a few names popping up already that we can be pretty confident of seeing in GP2: Grosjean, Buemi, Albuquerque, Asmer just to name the few who've stood out this year.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Sev

I wouldn't say that the talent pool was shallow compared to previous years (well, maybe slightly). Merely the combination of talent and experience is lacking.

There are several drivers who've impressed me a lot this year, namely Senna and Nakajima. And in the fill-ins there have been some impressive drivers too, like Buemi and Albuquerque.

But have such newer or less experienced drivers stood out because the talent that in previous years was always challenging at the front is missing this season? After all we can only really truly say that Glock is a driver that ought to be in F1 now?

I agree to a point though. Next year could be another classic. There's a clutch of guys who've shown flashes of genuine ability this season, who really look as though they just need seat time to hone those overtaking skills.

Senna and Nakajima are the prime examples at times they've been scarily fast but don't quite seem to know how to exploit that kind of latent pace over a race distance? Then you've got Maldonado who already can overtake people without much problem who looks as though he might clean up if he had a set up that works!!

Then there's others I think are possibly hampered by equipment like Soucek, Tung, Chandhok even who judging by some form they've shown at times already this season, I think would be race winners given the right car.

Soucek and Tung both showed flashes this weekend and Chandhok at several previous meetings.

Then there's others who are in arguably better cars that are probably just journeymen....

[bella]

Originally Posted by Mekola

Agree. And mainly it seems that we're looking for names and sensation-build starts from karting grounds, more than people that could form a respectable style after years and years of training. Remind the case of Seb Bourdais, who drove at similar taste times at F3000 era, about year 2000. And now where he is.

totally agree, it's about finding the best new talent first now, and f1 teams picking drivers from when they learn to walk isn't doing much good either. they choose someone early, and then drop them when they're not mature enough. kubica is a fine example of that - renault dropped him, and then once he had found his feet a couple of years later bmw pick him up and voila, he's a hero.

[chunterer]

Actually other than Vettel there doesn't appear to be any known 'F1 staircase' lighting talents like a Kubica or Lewis looming at the moment though in F3/FR 3.5 or GP2 does there?

Nakajima has got his name on a Toyota seat in 2009 probably and maybe Senna in a Red Bull/STR or something.

I wouldn't say Hirate's anything to write home about, the Red Bull guys aren't all that special although Senna and Zaugg look promising.

Di Grassi's not what Renault need.

Etc....

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Maybe then Javier Villa wouldn't have had it so easy?

On the commentary it was mentioned that he had better race pace even than that of Saturday's frontrunners

[Jackman]

It kind of bugs me when people say there's no talent in GP2 this that excites them - mostly I think they mean to say there are no names they know there, which isn't the same thing.

Okay, there aren't any star names this year (apart from Bruno), but in a way that makes it a little purer as we aren't looking at the racing through tinted lenses. There's no question at all that Glock is ready to step up to F1, but there are other guys who have had rotten luck but shown well when they've had a chance (Filippi got nerfed out in Barcelona and Germany and is still holding on to third in the championship despite being in midfield team, Pantano - who admittedly will never get back to F1 - has had a string of car problems but been incredibly strong when his car lasts, Chandhok is already leading his team despite his more experienced teammate, Nakajima has been insanely quick all year and has now learnt that qualifying counts, even Maldonado has had moments of genius).

Sometimes I think certain racing drivers should change their names to get in line with a famous driver of the past, just so people will notice them.

[Go_For_Pole]

If there is anything wrong with this year it is that the talent in the top teams is suspect, not the talent overall. Di Grassi, Ammermuller are wasting ART's efforts, Negrao and to a lesser degree Rodriguez are wasting Piquet's and Lapierre is wasting DAMS's (I mean if rookie Nakajima is this fast, what could one solid experience hand do with this car?). If those teams had better drivers then there would be a fight with iSport. As it is, Glock is doing a fine job, surely his success should not be marred by other people's inability or the bad luck he seems to have. He is a worthy sucessor to Rosberg and Hamilton, no doubt.

[bella]

i think part of the problem is that it's difficult to get excited about a couple of drivers who have been in f1 and underacheived. whether it's a conscious decision to be underwhelmed by that or not i don't know, but put it into context of what people expect from a series that is pitched as the ladder into f1 (correctly or incorrectly) and you can easily see how someone on the way down may not be quite as exciting as a potential star on the way up.

so while there's no big star names, it seems time for the pr departments to start to work for a living and drum up some interest really. having said that, the spectator interest is certainly there - at all of the gp's i've been to this year a good proportion of the crowd decide to hang around and watch the gp2 races.

whether that's down to there being big star names in the past and people wanting to see a senna this year i don't know. but i'd wager it's more to do with the level of action in the races.

[Go_For_Pole]

bella are you refering to Glock as an F1 underacheiver? If so then I think you are harsh on him.

[bella]

nah, i was ratting out pizzonia and pantano mostly

[Sev]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Actually other than Vettel there doesn't appear to be any known 'F1 staircase' lighting talents like a Kubica or Lewis looming at the moment though in F3/FR 3.5 or GP2 does there?

So see, there I'd disagree.

Whilst I don't doubt for a second Vettel is fast, he did also get beaten by Di Resta last year. And that wasn't just luck, if you look at qualifying pace, Di Resta was way ahead - the points was the most favourable statistic Vettel had. Now, he did have a lot on his mind that year, but still.

Similarly, this year in WSR, I think there are drivers who are showing they have the pace to race with him.

In the last race, considering the reverse grid-system is used in WSR, both Albuquerque and Hanley out-scored Vettel on what was a good day for him, and they're both vastly less experienced.

That's not to say I don't think Vettel is good. He's damn good. But he's not the only one.

[Mekola]

These are the kind of things that make me though what happened if Kimi Raikkonen would have driven for SuperNova F3000 team in 2001 season...
...had be considered the talent we now recognize on him?

[chunterer]

Thread's developing a nice tangent into the deeper state of GP2. Like it!

Go_for_Pole's question about who is underachieving in hitherto top teams is an interesting one.

Jackman's point about people not necessarily realising the bigger picture is also a good one.

bella's question mark about how drivers stack up against so called 'F1 has beens' is also worth evaluation.

Ans sev's argument that Vettel has superior peers like Di Resta who is arguably 'rotting' in DTM (like Carroll was until recently) is sure to stoke up debate (perhaps in a WSR thread though eh??

There's little doubt that some people have been massively 'found out' this year but seem to be getting away with it.

There's others who have distinctly shown what they could be capable of in a better engineered car.

Then you'd say well it's good to have a couple of highly experienced guys running to act as a yardstick. But some people might think if those yarsticks don't get beaten by the supposed hotshots then those hotshots can't be that good.

Pantano is no mug, Glock certainly isn't and one would've thought Pizzonia knows his way around a racing car but fell flat on his face in a big way which now unfortunately for him has finished his career off?

I sit somewhere in the middle: a driver who is 'brave' enough to step down and try and rebuild his career after a bad rookie experience in F1 is a good thing. Remember Piero Martini in mid 80's? Suffered badly in Minardi in '85 then stepped down to F3000 for couple of years, reassured people that he really was quite good and got another chance in F1 and stayed there for several years.

I'm not saying Pantano will ge the same opportunity, it's different these doors commercially and also because there's half as many F1 cars knocking about.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Jackman

It kind of bugs me when people say there's no talent in GP2 this that excites them - mostly I think they mean to say there are no names they know there, which isn't the same thing.

I just don't see what names has got to do with it. At all.

There are plenty of names in there.

The problem is the quality of competition this year. I just feel that there are a bunch of (potentially very good) drivers in there arguably too early, mixed with some F1 refugees (yawn) and the usual handful of no-hopers that bless every category.

Some good examples being Senna, who is clearly pretty good, but has a lot of work to do racecraft wise. This has been apparent the past couple of years and is ever so slowly getting better. Conway has dissapointed really. Glock hasn't been so inspired as usual, although he has had cruel luck. And there are some strange drivers in some cars that perhaps they don't deserve.

As a consequence, it is just not as good. Simple as.

But realistically: we were blessed with truly world class excitement these past couple of years and it was always going to be hard for this year to match that. And it will get better again. All classes have their peaks and troughs, this year is somewhere in between.

Meanwhile, I shall continue to watch anyways as it has the most important attribute - four wheeled, engined devices being driven quickly.

[SALEEN S7R]

For me it is as good this year as it was in 2005, perhaps not 2006. Conway has been extremely unlucky this year or he would probably be right in the hunt for the Championship, I can think of several ocassions when he has been taken out this year and re joined at the back of the field in the feature race leaving him a near impossible task to get points for either race.

Glock is doing a good job too, he is the driver the others must measure themselves against IMO, probably wont make it back into F1 but he deserves his place in GP2. Drivers like Di Grassi and Filippi I think we could well see in F1 next year, Di Grassi in particular has shown he can be both very quick and consistant. Filippi I dont particularly like as a driver as he has been the cause of a lot of Conway's bad luck this year but well he is showing himself to be quick most of the time.

Maldonando and Nakajima will be ready for F1 soon too I think but perhaps 2008 might be a little early, still they both have a lot of promise and I think you can see that. As for Senna and Villa they are showing that they can be quick on ocassion but still a little erratic, how good is Senna really? I think hes good but not all hes been hyped up to be. Villa? Well I hadnt heard of him before this year but from what i've seen so far im impressed.

As I said before I think the quality of 2005 is there this year, 2006 was a exceptional year though and when 2 big name drivers like Piquet and Hamilton leave a series it is always going to be hard to find drivers to fill their shoes straight away.

[Alex K]

GP2 is not recognision for F1 world. I suppose CC will be dead before year's end, Sam and Dan will probably move to NASCAR, so there would be door open for IndyCar for some of'em (Pantano, Lapierre...). Number of very well backed teams in TCC/GT/PROTO where young up-and-comings can find their places. Not all of'em move into F1, most of'em has talent, many of'em money to perform in other forms of motorsport.