Phoenix Off

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Another "win" for the hobby racers. This year's winner of the "Ansan Award" goes to...

This has come for the promoters though. Dale Jensen and his lot were the ones behind the race and have pulled the pin, so while yes CCWS could have jumped in put up $$$ to save an event I think it is a bit rich to blame them for it falling.

[luke]

Originally Posted by stradlin21

I couldn’t stay away after hearing this superb story

I’ve just got to my desk today after working for hours and hours in the blazing sun in high vis clothing and I have to say that this story has cheered me up no end

The question is, and you’ll love this Luke

Is this now a dying series?

To call Phoenix gone a superb story is not what I'd do.

But I do think the off season will be vital if CC can pick up from the make or break season that only really caused more losses than gains than previously predicted.

Many are saying CC will die. I have heard that every year on the internet among IRL communities for 5 years, whether it will is one thing and one I am not going to eleberate too much but things don't look good.

[norman-normal]

When promoters try something new, especially when they are going against the grain of the ultra Conservative mid-west and south, there will be problems. It is much safer to let other series take the chances and then imitate the profitable endeavors; the predictable result of this tactic, however is boredom and a gradual decline.

BTW John, whats this "we" ****


[DO NOT DODGE THE AUTOCENSOR]

[luke]

Oh and stradlin, finding satisfaction and joy out of negatives with CC and hoping it dies is rather unjust. If you don't like CC don't watch it.

[drewdawg727]

The question i have is...
...did any of you really have faith that Phoenix was going to happen in the first place? I had an inkling that it would be canceled for a couple of reasons...one because it is scheduled for December, which is way way too late for any race to be happening, and two because the whole idea was shaky to begin with in terms of promotion and the fact that it was going to be a less attended race

[Knowlesy]

Highly embarrassing stuff for a once respected series that is quickly heading around the whirlpool accompanied by the sound of a flushing toilet.

It has got to the point where you've seen and heard enough. Finish the series off and start it again for gods sake. Someone. Anyone. Please.

To be quite honest, I am laughing at it all. I have to, otherwise I'd cry.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Highly embarrassing stuff for a once respected series that is quickly heading around the whirlpool accompanied by the sound of a flushing toilet.

It has got to the point where you've seen and heard enough. Finish the series off and start it again for gods sake. Someone. Anyone. Please.

To be quite honest, I am laughing at it all. I have to, otherwise I'd cry.

Rather exurbias and ott.

I'm really not a fan of SJ, Cotman is the man. SJ just released public spin basically that this won't affect things. I believe this well hurt the morale with quite an impact. JMO I don't think CC can recover from this hit, and I don't think it'll be the last. But we'll see, I hope things turn out well and that we have an '08. Maybe I am just reading too many ott negative topics and even hearing people hoping the series dies and enjoying it. I said it before and I said it again, don't like CC don't watch or comment on it, do something better let us fans try and enjoy the series.

[Knowlesy]

Enjoy watching the series die? luke - Champcar was the best series in the world. I am not enjoying it dying and I doubt anyone is!

Surely even the most die-hard supporter of the series must see what an utter shambles the thing is now. It really needs sorting out from top to bottom - it once did everything right, now I struggle to see anything right at all.

These races getting called off is becoming a regular event and it is just totally and utterly unacceptable for a series that thinks of itself as topline to do this. Unacceptable!

Hence the desperation and wanting a clean sheet of paper, before further embarrassments make it even more of a laughing stock. Champcar does not deserve the status it thinks it deserves. It needs to work damn hard for it starting from now.

[Adam43]

It is clear that Knowlesy is inherently a huge ChampCar fan. Albeit a disillusioned one.

Anyway, to more pressing matters; what does exurbias mean?

[luke]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Enjoy watching the series die? luke - Champcar was the best series in the world. I am not enjoying it dying and I doubt anyone is!

Pff.

On the cancellation of Phoenix CC race and downhill trend:

Originally Posted by stradlin21

What a laugh

I couldn’t stay away after hearing this superb story

Knowsley I'm sorry but comments like this isn't needed. How someone can enjoy the demise or negative happening surely conflicts posting guidelines? Wishing and enjoying a series die is pathetic.

Surely even the most die-hard supporter of the series must see what an utter shambles the thing is now. It really needs sorting out from top to bottom - it once did everything right, now I struggle to see anything right at all.

I said a number of times this is a bad hit and I doubt CC can gain anything along with morale. I think this will hurt a lot in the winter break.

These races getting called off is becoming a regular event and it is just totally and utterly unacceptable for a series that thinks of itself as topline to do this. Unacceptable!

Yes I mentioned that.

Hence the desperation and wanting a clean sheet of paper, before further embarrassments make it even more of a laughing stock. Champcar does not deserve the status it thinks it deserves. It needs to work damn hard for it starting from now.

Ending the series then restarting the series is a waste of time, money and whatever postion it currently has. Everything will be lost and in the current state of aowr a new series from CC couldn't get started.

With the types of comments in this thread I'm not going to waste my time reading this forum if this sort of stuff is going to be posted. I said it before I'll say it again, don't like CC and want it to die, go watch somethin' else let us try and enjoy what there is left.

[Leighton Irwin]

CCWS is bringing new meaning to "Couldn't organize a **** up in a brewery".
Races in Dec. do not work. Too close to Christmas. Sebring tried it in the 60's. The teams showed up and so did a spectator.

[blueflagger]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Anyway, to more pressing matters; what does exurbias mean?

Outside the urban part of Phoenix?

[Knowlesy]

I do watch something else as a matter of fact. Quite reguarly now actually.

I am entitled to my say as much as the guys that can't face facts. I appreciate the endless moaning can get on people's nerves, but fact is if we weren't bothered about the series we wouldn't comment. I think you'll find everyone who is negative is desperate for the revival of Champcar. When you see there is no evidence of that with endless news like this and the material evidence on the track...

I will always say what I think about everything and I don't care who I upset along the way, as long as I at least try to be reasonable.

It's just hard to take. We have had a few years to accept this, but it is still intensely frustrating. It's F3000 with cancellations on top and it is just completely hideous. I really need some positive news from Champcar....properly positive news. And then some.

[norman-normal]

In High School, the people who really wanted to look cool always behaved in an extremely jaded manner. Nothing met their standards and they were better than you because their standards were better. Schools out now, you can go to a more comfortable place.

[Tony Clifton]

Kalkoven is a shrewed businessman. I hope that the series can be fixed. But the harder BOTH series try (IRL and CCWS) the more it is becoming apparent that the split is KILLING both series.

IRL has a couple of key events that draw well and many that do not.

CCWS has some GREAT events and attendance at some venues, but the trend for attendance is going down not up. CCWS is relying on international events for growth. Those events have proven themselves to be unreliable. Heck now even domestic race spots are unreliable.

The real "cure" here is a merger between the 2 series which would lead to a type of schedule that we had in .........................1999!
(1999 was a schedule and manufacture support that probably won't be duplicated again).

Sadly the merger PROBABLY won't happen which will eventually lead to the death of one series. If one series DIES the remaining series WILL NOT in my opinion get stronger, it will get weaker.

Sad to see.

[Hazza]

So it's official, Phoenix is the new Korea? Oh well, at least this isn't an issue as it's happened so much it's now a non-issue. Roll on next year, and a devastating Will Power victory.

As for Knowlesy, he's just rep-hunting.

[JohnSSC]

blueflagger, I think "exurbias" is plural, so that would mean outside the urban part of Pheonix, Denver, Ansan and Shanghai...

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

When promoters try something new, especially when they are going against the grain of the ultra Conservative mid-west and south, there will be problems. It is much safer to let other series take the chances and then imitate the profitable endeavors; the predictable result of this tactic, however is boredom and a gradual decline.

BTW John, whats this "we" $h**

Well norman, it is always nice to see someone so eloquently express themselves by dodging the auto censor.

The "we" represents all of us out here who still care about open wheel racing. We may prefer sprinters to CC, IRL the 3/4 midgets, but the bottom line is despite the differences our good friends at CC central insist on blowing pablum our way. Whether "we" agree or disagree with each other about which format we prefer "we" are still the target audience. If coming here and finding people who do not agree with you is troublesome, I am sure there are more "focused" forums that provide the keen insight and pov you like.

Separately, I had no idea that Phoenix was now located in the Midwest. Nor were we giving bonus points for that good old college try as apparently in your book failing miserably in a new market is still a positive. Looks like we are going to have to let "other series" crack this particular nut...

So on the positive side CC has tried and failed in Denver, Ansan, Phoenix and China. The picture has never been brighter.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

In High School, the people who really wanted to look cool always behaved in an extremely jaded manner. Nothing met their standards and they were better than you because their standards were better. Schools out now, you can go to a more comfortable place.

Hmm. It is a shame that all these years later this is still important to some of us. Not sure that wondering about the stability of a series where three races fall off the official schedule in less than 12 months constitutes being "jaded."

I suppose I am am spoiled by series such as Grand Am and Spec Miata or dare I say it: NASCAR where events that are scheduled tend to happen.

[JohnSSC]

Ending the series then restarting the series is a waste of time, money and whatever postion it currently has. Everything will be lost and in the current state of aowr a new series from CC couldn't get started.

With the types of comments in this thread I'm not going to waste my time reading this forum if this sort of stuff is going to be posted. I said it before I'll say it again, don't like CC and want it to die, go watch somethin' else let us try and enjoy what there is left.[/QUOTE]


I would just be taking a guess here, but I don't think anyone is suggesting that CC start over, I think (and I may be incorrect) that the so-called "top tier" of open wheel racing needs to start with a fresh sheet.

Despite all that vaunted business acumen that two and 2/3s of the amigos supposedly have, there is not enough interest here to have two series. As Billy Preston once sang: "nothing from nothing leaves nothing..."

The fact that the series owners chose not to support an event that has been on the schedule all season speaks volumes. Perhaps a tipping point has been reached where the infamous phrase "leaving to explore other opportunities" will be seen with greater frequency.

Oh, by the way, Cotman is not "the man" in charge of marketing - Johnson is. Cotman is in charge of race operations. Cotman would have nothing to do with the marketing (or failure to market) the Phoenix race.

[gttouring]

what a disaster
1st as good as some additions to the calender have been it appears this is like the old NIssan WorldSeries- a fast spec car globetrotting about and not really doing much
I love the champcars the turbo and the new DP01, the old Lola and Reynard were better and apparently more flexible in terms of configurations. (not spec i guess)
what did CART do right?
what has CC done right?
what has the IRL done right?
the answers are likely very close.
Comeon champcar find a way to make it happen- perhaps more crazy power? and super huge slicks?
make it a shear spectacle of Cosworth craziness- but is that enough?
how about more friendly venues this years longbeach was an eyesore to be AT, and tought to get around and see anything outside the grandstands
and if the CCWS is the headliner series- make it go last not one of many acts- the Speed world challange GT which was easier to see, and a great race as always

[2112]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Hmm. It is a shame that all these years later this is still important to some of us. Not sure that wondering about the stability of a series where three races fall off the official schedule in less than 12 months constitutes being "jaded."

I suppose I am am spoiled by series such as Grand Am and Spec Miata or dare I say it: NASCAR where events that are scheduled tend to happen.

Time to be a place fan, not a series fan.

I could watch Sebring, Monaco, LeMans, Indy, Road America, Road Atlanta, Monza, Bristol, Daytona, Surfers, Long Beach, Dakar, Isle of Man and come close to full schedule without being a fanboy of anything.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by gttouring

what a disaster
1st as good as some additions to the calender have been it appears this is like the old NIssan WorldSeries- a fast spec car globetrotting about and not really doing much
I love the champcars the turbo and the new DP01, the old Lola and Reynard were better and apparently more flexible in terms of configurations. (not spec i guess)
what did CART do right?
-CART back their glory days (1992-2002) wan an amazing series, big money, lots of manufacturers for engines, chassis, tires. Sponsors were big, tracks were varied, drivers generally were very good.
CART killed itself. The board structure meant one franchise holder could hold a monopoly on equipment or the rules. Penske was notorious for this.
Racing needs a dictator, somebody who financial life is on the line. NASCAR has this, F1 has this. CART never had it.
The real death knell is when CART when public. I knew it was the end of the series when that happened. Stockholders want growth and ROI. Racing does not grow financially that way.


what has CC done right?

-Well for the financial picture the series is in, they have done a lot right. Spec chassis and engines and tires. Cost of entry is lower.
what has the IRL done right?
For the survival of THEIR series, they kept CART out and are keeping CCWS out. They have held the Indy 500 in their series. Very important (but losing importance to sponsors) race. IRL has added road courses. Their chassis is UGLY.

the answers are likely very close.
Comeon champcar find a way to make it happen- perhaps more crazy power? and super huge slicks?
make it a shear spectacle of Cosworth craziness- but is that enough?
how about more friendly venues this years longbeach was an eyesore to be AT, and tought to get around and see anything outside the grandstands
and if the CCWS is the headliner series- make it go last not one of many acts- the Speed world challange GT which was easier to see, and a great race as always

The REAL answer for open wheel racing is showing both TV and attendance growth for sponsors. With the split, as I have said before, neither is happening for either series.

Open wheel racing is like a pair of siamese twins, except each of the twins takes turns getting seriously ill. Both of the twins may take turns feeling better for a period of time but as time marches on, BOTH twins are declining in strength.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Oh, by the way, Cotman is not "the man" in charge of marketing - Johnson is. Cotman is in charge of race operations. Cotman would have nothing to do with the marketing (or failure to market) the Phoenix race.

Johnson wouldnt have had too much to do with the events organisation either I would imagine.

A very disappointing few days for the whole CC family. You would hope Kalkoven, Forsythe, Petitt and Cotman (under his new role) would be quickly organising some meetings to try and restore some confidence for the competitors, sponsors, other race tracks so the damage can be somewhat limited.

Next step, I am not sure how far along the 2008 schedule is but the sooner the better and its going to have to be stable, but I guess we all know that

[indycool]

I agree, D.R.T. Johnson is just CC's "fall guy" for its problems. I don't think he has any decision-making whatsoever about these events.

The cancellation at Phoenix was predicted long ago, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. DDB Ventures, supposedly the promoters (Dale Jensen and Brad Yonover and maybe a deal with someone else...KK?) signed up for Vegas and Phoenix. They lost their cabooses on Vegas....I've heard unconfirmed numbers from reasonably good sources anywhere from $9-19 million. This caused them to take a long look at Phoenix. And the "recall" of tickets with a reissue date of November should've told everybody something was going on.

Both Jensen and Johnson have said it doesn't affect Vegas for '08 but Vegas is already affected for '08 and few seem to realize it. There's gonna be a whole lotta shakin' goin' on before we see Vegas again, either.

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/9441161.html

The Thomas and Mack Center is off Strip and Tropicana and Swenson are two major arteries in town, both of which are critical to getting to the airport. It is also on the UNLV campus and under the control of the state's university system in addition to Clark County. There are dormitories and residences all around there. It's definitely not the place for a street course.

As for this year's course, the scenario has already changed. An Alzheimer's research hospital is going up near the World Market Center where a set of bleachers were for this year's race. Other construction is also going on.

And the loss, whether at the low end of the speculation or the high end, is staggering.