Kirby on Road America and American Racing Scene

[luke]

I agree Norm, but us 'race fans' should just get on enjoying the racing, well we try to but when politics and even info is posted in a racing thread it is a bit annoying.

I haven't enjoyed CC as much as previous seasons in the past I have lost a bit of love when I watch the races I find it hard to see its CC at times but I will stand by this series and hope it grows we all do at heart but as rush aka 1221 said the series needs to have steady dates, steady teams, steady drivers and each year in OWRS we haven't had that. Have just 10 races a year whatever get the backbone done first. I personally think the whole 6 new races this year was a bad thing but we'll see.

[paul-collins]

Absolutely, luke (and 2112) - the musical chairs, instability of teams, and the always-in-flux schedule has really made it hard to follow the series. I heard somewhere that at Road America there were lots of Champcar swag wearing fans, as compared to the number of ALMS swag wearing fans. I, myself, wouldn't wear a SERIES supporting shirt, as that's not the level at which I identify - although I have multiple hats for ALMS teams (and, for that matter, an old Players hat when Tag and Carp were teammates).

You know, you don't see many NHL (the league) hats / jerseys, but you sure see a lot of team paraphernelia.

I dunno, the teams, the drivers, the venues... so many good parts. I just don't feel that there's any cohesion anymore.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

I am wondering Way so many people who seem to be so consumed by hatred for champ Cars, spend so much time researching and posting in a forum dedicated to the object of their hatred? None of you will admit to any profit motives. It seems rather sadistic, could that be it? Do you enjoy inflicting pain on others? Give it a little thought.

I assume this is directed at me, if it isn't I apologize. When we try and characterize others, we can often be incorrect. That is the case here. I have no hatred for Champcars, at one point it was my favourite motor racing series. That it is no longer my favourite series, but one that I still pay attention to, does not preclude me from sharing my thoughts about it. I'm sorry I don't indulge exclusively in happy talk, and that is the case even with series I favour now.

[luke]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Absolutely, luke (and 2112) - the musical chairs, instability of teams, and the always-in-flux schedule has really made it hard to follow the series. I heard somewhere that at Road America there were lots of Champcar swag wearing fans, as compared to the number of ALMS swag wearing fans. I, myself, wouldn't wear a SERIES supporting shirt, as that's not the level at which I identify - although I have multiple hats for ALMS teams (and, for that matter, an old Players hat when Tag and Carp were teammates).

You know, you don't see many NHL (the league) hats / jerseys, but you sure see a lot of team paraphernelia.

I dunno, the teams, the drivers, the venues... so many good parts. I just don't feel that there's any cohesion anymore.

Yeah. CC has always had that potential in OWRS. Sure all the big teams left before and around when CART was dying along with the teams, sponsors, drivers and engines.

But CC was always sustainable with 1 chassis and the Cosworth. I am no business man but I do think CC could have been run better by OWRS. Sure KK has a lot of money as does TG but he hasn't spent it well I don't think.

Each year great drivers are developed, 1 example is Philippe but he gets put on the side lines. He's a great personality, developed into a great driver yet can't find a drive. CC has to make sure good drivers aren't left on the side line because IMO I see potential each time has been lost and we keep on seeing 17-19 cars when it could increase.

Sure we need new teams but 19 isn't a bad number to aim for. I remember the start of 2005 there were 19 cars again for the first round and that number could of hit 20 or even 21. But then again things went down etc. CC has always had potential just things don't go right.

Like I said it pains me to say it but for the first time I don't see CC sometimes when I watch races, the biggest factor is the DP 01, it's nice but it just doesn't seem Champ Cary to me.

I also believe that the series should try and be as American as possible. Merge the Atlantics with CC. Have 10 races and try and make them as strong as possible. I don't personally believe that all these different markets in different continents will work with a series that isn't doing well where it's based.

I really hope things pick up but I can't see any sudden changes with the way things are being run.

Maybe what I am saying is wrong but I do still love Champ Car I just feel things that could be going right aren't.

[norman-normal]

Personally I am weary of this, it's like living around a bunch of destructive teenagers.

[Knowlesy]

I don't hate Champcar. I loved it once and want it to succeed again.

But it won't and that's that sadly. It is hard to see any chink of light for the series. The future is so bleak that we'll need floodlights.

[2112]

Just to clarify, I still watch all the races. I`m just saying as a fan, the excitement of just 2 years ago is missing. I`m not the type to just start watching the other series just because things not going the way I want.

I enjoy other forms of motorsports, so if it gets unbearable, I could move on, but I still think I`m a fan, but getting very empathetic as bad decisions are made. For example, when the last oval was dropped, it was a HUGE blow for me, as I`m sure others may feel the same. I was a big Nelson Phillipe fan also (no jokes please)....it took a couple years, but when he won Surfers...I was thrilled. He`s gone. Anyhow, the list is long, but you get the idea.

I`ve always treaded lightly on criticism because it rains on others enjoyment of the series and the forums. I know I hated it in the past, so I`m off the D&G here...(until another bumbling decision is made from Antarctica)

[mountainstar]

I've not seen every race this year, probably 3/4's I've seen and I've enjoyed the racing much more than in any recent seasons.

Steve Johnson is probably the biggest problem for champcar and the originator of many of it's recent problems. He may be considered good at sales, but he knows f all about organization.

I see champcar as having all the pieces on the table. They just need to be assembled the right way.

[Purist]

Teams need steady sponsorship for driver consistency, as well as for their own continuation.

We need a good fan base, and enough events in good markets. Sorry, but 10 races a season is NOT going to cut it. It's not a personal thing; it's simply that 10 will not be enough to maintain a presence in the motor sport community through the season. This 15-16 events a season is a good number.

As I see it, the elements of the schedule to keep are Long Beach, Portland, Cleveland, Toronto, Road America, Surfers Paradise, and Mexico City. As for the newer venues, hold on to Las Vegas, Mont Tremblant, and Edmonton. Unless a unrestricted date opens up, we'll have to live with San Jose instead of going back to Laguna Seca. I seriously doubt Mosport, Road Atlanta, or Lime Rock will be considered up to standard. Therein lies another problem; permanent road courses are so often held to such a high standard, especially compared to street circuits, which can make finding "acceptable" venues for cars of this level rather difficult. I, of course, will wait till December to pass judgment on the Phoenix street circuit.

CART isn't on great terms with ISC, so a lot of the ovals will be a tough sell. Not to mention, the ovals at Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Milwaukee have not drawn well for some time, for either series. Mid-Ohio has not been visited for awhile, and now the IRL is there. The same goes for St. Petersburg, Watkins Glen, and Detroit. I suppose though, Milwaukee, Kentucky, Texas World Speedway, and Pocono would be a good set of ovals, at least in theory.

As a final note, stop just complaining! Actually propose something! Heck, call and e-mail in your complaints, suggestions, and wishlists to GF, KK, PG, and Cotman until their lawyers tell you to cut it out!

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

I don't hate Champcar. I loved it once and want it to succeed again.

But it won't and that's that sadly. It is hard to see any chink of light for the series. The future is so bleak that we'll need floodlights.

I can recall when everyone was calling for sunglasses because the future was so bright with the new DP01, Korea, China, and....

never mind....

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I've not seen every race this year, probably 3/4's I've seen and I've enjoyed the racing much more than in any recent seasons.

That is a positive from 2007. Races and the championship have been competitive and entertaining. It is a pity so few have seen them on TV.

[Oldtony]

Interesting reading about the attitude to CCWS in it's home country and how the fans see it there.
Here on the Gold Coast we have always looked forward to the annual CCWS or CART visit for both the racing and for the carnival atmosphere. Compared to F1 when it comes to Melbourne it is looked on as more freindly, relaxed and approachable. Sure Surfers can develop a party out of any excuse but on an annual basis this is one of the best.
Does CCWS as an organisation work at developing the atmosphere in the cities it visits? Does it work hard enough to have the supporting events that build on their race? Does it create the off track entertainment and the excitement that always seems to happen around our event? In other words does the success of the Gold Coast race weekend stem from our local showbiz efforts carrying CCWS or is CCWS doing their part in the promotion?
Given all the above it will be interesting to see how this years events develop.
A change of TV Networks for the V8SC racing which is the other feature of the carnival has meant that we have had virtually no TV coverage in Australia until the last couple of races. The Network that now owns the rights just wasn't interested enough to use it even in the normal after midnight Monday slot. Thanks to Stoddart and Gore, together with the fact that Will Power is going OK they finally were pressured into showing it and have been surprised by the ratings. Suddenly all enthusiastic!
So my question remains, is it competition and confusion with IRL? Is it that Open Wheel Racing is being submerged by NASCAR? Is it just bad programing and promotion by CCWS that leads to this lack of enthusiasm in its home in North America.

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Personally I am weary of this, it's like living around a bunch of destructive teenagers.

So if you don't agree with the person or can't really come up with anything to refute what they are saying, then just insult everyone!

Fogel has made some excellent points. His method has not been at all in the form of personal attacks against the owners or any individual associated with CC. Simply parsing the data and reaching a conclusion. Just because the conclusion is not favorable to CC does not make him, or anyone else who is like-minded here, "destructive."

Certainly if the general atmosphere here were bothersome to me, than I would be evaluating my level of participation rather than engaging in name-calling.

Luke, if I may summarize your posts here, your contention is that despite the big teams being gone, no advertising, bad tv and the DP-01 being less attractive than the Lola we are supposed to be enjoying the series? Further, you want to combine CC with Atlantics? So we would then have what is advertised as a top-tier series being combined with what is essentially a development series - for what reason? would not that be a huge step backwards if not an admission that the "Business Plan" has failed?

I will go a bit further here and if Rookie Sensation (remember that??) Nelson Phillippe is a "great" driver after one win, then I guess Ryan Hunter-Reay and Robert Doornbos are legends because they have won double that? Seriously, Nelson became (somehow) a serviceable driver, but great? Yikes!

The hobby racers continue to try to hit the pinata here. Unfortunately, despite having all the right pieces (supposedly) they continue to miss.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Purist

Teams need steady sponsorship for driver consistency, as well as for their own continuation.

We need a good fan base, and enough events in good markets. Sorry, but 10 races a season is NOT going to cut it. It's not a personal thing; it's simply that 10 will not be enough to maintain a presence in the motor sport community through the season. This 15-16 events a season is a good number.

15-16 is a good number but when there's tba races and canceled races among other new races every year I'd rather see 10 strong races in North America and then build on that. I can't see what 10 races would be bad because that's always been the rough number of races in the US etc. I was a big fan of the Canadian triple crown this year though.

CART isn't on great terms with ISC, so a lot of the ovals will be a tough sell. Not to mention, the ovals at Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Milwaukee have not drawn well for some time, for either series. Mid-Ohio has not been visited for awhile, and now the IRL is there. The same goes for St. Petersburg, Watkins Glen, and Detroit. I suppose though, Milwaukee, Kentucky, Texas World Speedway, and Pocono would be a good set of ovals, at least in theory.

CART did burn it's bridges but the fact is ISC own most ovals and they wouldn't promote CC etc so it would ne bear impossible to make it a huge event. That is why the IRL struggles at some ovals, Michigan ISC an example. I would love to see ovals again but they aren't happening soon because of the current situation.

As a final note, stop just complaining! Actually propose something! Heck, call and e-mail in your complaints, suggestions, and wishlists to GF, KK, PG, and Cotman until their lawyers tell you to cut it out!

Haven't you just done the same? Anyway I always post in racing discussion I just wanted to let my optimism and slight disappointment with how this year has turned out and how I'd like to see CC do in the future seeing as this thread is that. Glad though we haven't seen any rants yet though..

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Luke, if I may summarize your posts here, your contention is that despite the big teams being gone, no advertising, bad tv and the DP-01 being less attractive than the Lola we are supposed to be enjoying the series? Further, you want to combine CC with Atlantics? So we would then have what is advertised as a top-tier series being combined with what is essentially a development series - for what reason? would not that be a huge step backwards if not an admission that the "Business Plan" has failed?

I'm not saying anyone should enjoy Champ Car if you don't want to THAT IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. You don't like it don't watch it. I still like Champ Car because it's Champ Car and I want it to do well unlike others cough cough?

My idea with merging Atlantics is not merging both into one series but rather just merging Atlantics into Champ Car. IMO Champ Car needs the US envolvement of drivers and teams etc. Like the '80s etc. Atlantics has that along with a slight international flavor.

Just think, Scott Speed, Marco Andretti, AJ Allmendinger, Graham Rahal battling it out as top tier US drivers in Champ Car. Along with marketable drivers that have been developed and want to be in Champ Car and European and world talent.

I will go a bit further here and if Rookie Sensation (remember that??) Nelson Phillippe is a "great" driver after one win, then I guess Ryan Hunter-Reay and Robert Doornbos are legends because they have won double that? Seriously, Nelson became (somehow) a serviceable driver, but great? Yikes!

Yikes!!! Hey John go back and read my posts of years back as I know you love to prove a point. I was strongly against Nelson and never posted anything positive about him in 2004 in his first year. Hindsight he jumped straight up to Champ car way too soon. But 2006 he developed into a very good driver. Why? Not just because of his one win which was great but how he drove the whole year, just compare Danny boy his team mate that year. Nelson is a fantastic personality, all round what Champ Car needs and creates but like I said he has been left on the side-lines and it frustrates me that year in year out this happens and I some times feel CC isn't going to make progress.

The hobby racers continue to try to hit the pinata here. Unfortunately, despite having all the right pieces (supposedly) they continue to miss.

'The Hobby Racers' Yeah you could did better, if you were in control of CC you'd end it.

I'm not saying that they have done any amazing job, I am just happy to still see Champ Car. I think Steve Johnson isn't good at all and that has been a big part of the loss ground and developement that could have been made this season.

I don't blame the DP 01 for being made, it did bring interest, new drivers, sponsors and teams but not quite of the impact we had hoped. Us fans anyway.

[indycool]

Not judging pro or con Steve Johnson because he's just a fall guy like Eidswick -- he isn't making any decisions and probably must ask the owners for permission to go to the bathroom. The recent promotion of Tony Cotman to an even position with Johnson and taking some of his duties away are a compromise between the series owners who wanted to broom him and the ones who wanted to keep him. Plus, he has a multiyear contract.

TV for Road America was a mess -- three road races scheduled at the same time period. It showed in the ratings.

NASCAR, Watkins Glen, ESPN, 2-5:47 p.m. ET, 4.1 rating, 9 share, 3,898,000 homes.

CC, Elkhart Lake, ABC, 3-5 p.m. ET, 0.4 rating, 1 share, 443,000 homes.

ALMS, Elkhart Lake, NBC tape-delayed, 2:30-4:30 p.m. ET, 0.4, 1 share, 417,000 homes.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

your contention is that despite the big teams being gone, no advertising, bad tv and the DP-01 being less attractive than the Lola we are supposed to be enjoying the series?

NHL, Forsythe, Team Australia and Minardi are good solid teams. I dont understand why team names effect your enjoyment of the championship. Nor advertisements. The tv isnt bad, the ratings are but once again how does that effect your enjoyment of the championship. Is the DP01 less attractive than the Lola, seems a very subjective notion, more importantly it has helped the racing which for me relates to ones enjoyment.


It seems as some in here are offended that ChampCar dares to exist in 2007 and beyond. There are issues to be addressed, no question. But if KK, GF, DP along with the teams and venues wish to keep fighting for the championship, I am going to keep watching. No one is forcing anyone else to like it or watch it. If some people are so disillusioned with it all, what are you doing here?

Sure people will disagree on methods and such, but to continue with why the series should fold, its an embarrassment etc is not constructive for the CC, the forum nor individual posters.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Sure people will disagree on methods and such, but to continue with why the series should fold, its an embarrassment etc is not constructive for the CC, the forum nor individual posters.

An admission of defeat of a concept, is often as constructive, as carrying on when the mountain of evidence is suggesting success goals are unattainable. We all know that Open Wheel as a whole is suffering, and we all agree that one series is the best way to go.

Frankly, I think it is more constructive to close shop on what appears to be a deteriorating situation, and have all efforts focused on whatever remains for Open Wheel, for the long-term strength and success of Open Wheel as a whole. Continuing to pour money at a losing situation is what I call not constructive.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

TV for Road America was a mess -- three road races scheduled at the same time period. It showed in the ratings.

What do you expect when you compare the series to NASCAR Cup ratings?

[luke]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, I think it is more constructive to close shop on what appears to be a deteriorating situation, and have all efforts focused on whatever remains for Open Wheel, for the long-term strength and success of Open Wheel as a whole. Continuing to pour money at a losing situation is what I call not constructive.

TG spent $350 mil in 8 years on his series, one wonders how much KK has spent. I would rather KK spent money helping CC grow in a more effective way and not just subsidizing teams in the past, same with TG. Like I said I am no businessmen and I don't know how the CCWS is run behind the scenes however I do believe Tony Cotman replacing SJ is a good thing.

[indycool]

That's not all he's saying, D.R.T. The things John mentioned have an effect on the enjoyment of the series to some. Indeed, who is racing, what they're racing, and how exciting the sport looks on TV are all critical to one's enjoyment.

A forum is also a place to express disillusionment as well as cheerlead. It's a place for discussion of those things.

The DP-01, for example, was portrayed as being "the answer" to all the problems: 24-26 cars, spec-type better competition, fans would love it, etc. Many of us said at the time that the DP-01 wouldn't make that much difference, if any. So, we have 17 cars, not 24-26. On TV, they look no different to the general, casual sports fan than the Lola. Bourdais is still Goliath.

The TV deal was supposed to have soared CC o'er the ramparts. Road America was .4 on network, ABC. Mexicans, Australians, Canadians and others from outside the U.S. complained about substandard or no coverage at the start of the season on these very forums. China had broadcast rights arranged, they were never delivered and there's a lawsuit over those and the race now. The two European races are on ESPN Classic, which has approximately half the reach of ESPN, or around 48,000,000 homes. And those races are going to be on at 7 in the morning if they do 'em live.

If the preseason picture that was painted turned anywhere close to reality, there'd be plenty of arguments for John, Fogel and myself, plus Kirby, Autoextremist, DeLorenzo and Miller. The picture was not even close.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

That's not all he's saying, D.R.T. The things John mentioned have an effect on the enjoyment of the series to some. Indeed, who is racing, what they're racing, and how exciting the sport looks on TV are all critical to one's enjoyment.

Bourdais winning has nothing to with management. I guess you could say they did a good job as pace wise all the drivers are very close because of the dp01.

A forum is also a place to express disillusionment as well as cheerlead. It's a place for discussion of those things.

Or beat down the other series and post mis-information?

The DP-01, for example, was portrayed as being "the answer" to all the problems: 24-26 cars, spec-type better competition, fans would love it, etc. Many of us said at the time that the DP-01 wouldn't make that much difference, if any. So, we have 17 cars, not 24-26. On TV, they look no different to the general, casual sports fan than the Lola. Bourdais is still Goliath.

The DP01 wasn't portrayed as an answer to quote you to all the problems. Fans etc were optimistic that the car count would increase. But in affect the dp01 may have been cheaper but all the teams had to buy new chassis etc and that's why we saw a lot of merging. No one in CC said we were going to get as many as 26 cars, that's stupid. We hoped as many as 22 or around. Bourdais leads the championship by just a few points, hardly dominating.

The TV deal was supposed to have soared CC o'er the ramparts. Road America was .4 on network, ABC. Mexicans, Australians, Canadians and others from outside the U.S. complained about substandard or no coverage at the start of the season on these very forums. China had broadcast rights arranged, they were never delivered and there's a lawsuit over those and the race now. The two European races are on ESPN Classic, which has approximately half the reach of ESPN, or around 48,000,000 homes. And those races are going to be on at 7 in the morning if they do 'em live.

It wasn't supposed to soar and be huge that isn't the point. I think being on ESPN is good for Champ Car paying or not, it's a top sports network in the U.S. Can't be doing that bad as the IRL is hardly any better if that considering they carry the 'Indy Car' name and aren't new to the network.

If the preseason picture that was painted turned anywhere close to reality, there'd be plenty of arguments for John, Fogel and myself, plus Kirby, Autoextremist, DeLorenzo and Miller. The picture was not even close.

No one painted a picture preseason. Us fans were optimistic this year would be the year the series took off. I blame SJ dor not speaking a word in the off-season when the series needed to promote etc. Maybe the same mistake won't be made again. All I know is there are many wild cards with the potential to take part in the Euro races.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by luke

What do you expect when you compare the series to NASCAR Cup ratings?

I don't think he was comparing; those are low for NASCAR too. It seems that having multiple road races on at the same time impacts viewership of all of them.

I am, however, willing to cut a wee bit of slack to both ALMS and CC, as both have just gotten onto what I consider to be better networks than CBS. When ALMS used to rely primarily on NBC, they were consistently getting 0.7 to 1.0 ratings; they've slid ever since they switched to CBS, and now need to rebuilt the TV brand.

Similarly, ABC is forging an identity as the network for racing, and I expect CC will benefit in the long term. (In fact, long term I wouldn't be surprised to see ALMS switch from Speed/NBC to the mouse ...)

That said, Luke, I don't think it's fair to say that IRL isn't doing better than CC on TV ratings alone. They most certainly are. As you said, they do have the built-in advantage of ABC having hosted them for a while. But they did get a 1.0 for Watkins Glen this year, and we all know about the Mid Ohio surprise.

[indycool]

luke, KK DID project 24-26 cars. Go back and read some of the news releases on the DP-01 and all the cheerleading. You say "we" hoped for 22 cars. Most on the forums, including your "we," whoever that is, DID believe 22 more than KK's number. Turned out to be 17 that included two teams scaling down to one car and merging, Forsythe threatening to run only one and PCM jumping in on whoever's money to run at the back.

Bourdais winning? Same song.

What misinformation?

Regarding the TV, again, read the CC news releases. They're online.

The DP-01, new TV deal and cheaper costs were not preseason hype? From what you responded, you didn't buy it, either.

[Leighton Irwin]

The Cdn. Tv coverage between Global and Score is terrible and probably has cost CC big time. When a race is on ABC it is fine. The only good thing is our market is relatively small although historically high per capita. IRL coverage is OK when it is on ABC but if it is ESPN most people have to get it on TSN at 3am! So neither are great.
Back to an earlier post I think Mosport could handle a race as far as the plant goes. It would be wickedly fast with times close to 1 min. for a 2.45 mile track. ALMS cars are around 1.6/7. Fogel you probably know the times.
Trouble is Mosport is only 60 miles from downtown Toronto and less than 20 from the Eastern subs. Not going to have 2 CC races that close to each other.